First Slavonian Grebe for Oman?

[AndyB]

Brett Richards has posted the photos on the ID Discussion Gallery (http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/gallery/display.cgi?gallery=gallery28)and the following request for feedback. Anybody have any thoughts? It does look bizarre and not a typical Slavonian. Has Pied-billed ever hybridized over there with Little Grebe? I remember there being some long-staying vagrants a few years back.

"Hi All

I have posted 3 photos (of my usual poor quality) of the first Slavonain Grebe for Oman on the ID Discussion Gallery on Surfbirds. I have never seen a Slavonian Grebe like this before, nor can I find any images of one like it. It has an orange bill, with just the culmen dark, and the extreme tip whitish. There is a brownish cheek patch, and the flanks are buffish. It does not have the usual black & white appearance of a winter-plumaged Slavonian Grebe, and for a while, while it was swimming with a Little Grebe, I overlooked it as one of that species, although it was a little larger & larger-headed. Also, although the eye is reddish, it is duller than normal.

It could be an individual which is aberrant in several features (displaying a syndrome), or could it possibly be a hybrid Slavonian x Little Grebe hybrid? The bird at http://www.chardres.clara.co.uk/pictures/dabchick2.jpg (http://www.chardres.clara.co.uk/pictures/dabchick2.jpg)(which came up on an image search for Slavonian Grebe), does appear to be a Dabchick (Little Grebe) as captioned, but bears some resemblance to the Oman bird.

I would welcome informed comments.

Cheers

Brett"

Look forward to your thoughts, Andy Birch

[Stephen R]

Pied billed grebe has hybridised with dabchick in cornwall but the chicks died. I dont think a hybrid in oman is seriously likely?
It doesnt look like a normal slav to me and has a lot of dabchick 'jizz'.

[kev rylands]

Nothing to add to the ID debate, but both look similar to a bird that lingered off Dawlish several winters back - always distant we never managed to put a definite name to it - although it was called all of the five common UK grebes at some stage!!

That said Little Grebe is virtually unknown offshore there and the bird like this was too large...

[Hotspur]

Does smack of Little grebe, but not a pure one, wonder whether its mixed with black-necked

[Johnny X]

Pied billed grebe has hybridised with dabchick in cornwall but the chicks died.

At least one survived for a while. The hybrid breeding occurred in 1994, I saw one of the hybrids in May 1995. Didn't look anything like the bird in question, mind!.

[Brian S]

I just can't see this being a Little Grebe. The shape of the head, tone of crown and hindneck contrasting with whitish cheeks conflict with LGs I see around Suffolk at the moment. Juv Slavs can show dusky ear coverts at the moment, though I an unsure about the colour of the bill. I might plump for Slav Grebe in odd plumage, but then again there might be som Little Grebe in it.

Check out the pics at
http://surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/gallery/display.cgi?gallery=gallery11&start=13

[Johnny X]

Could Little x Red-necked produce something like this?.

[Bobolink44]

I think Brett removed them from Euro Stop Press. Here they are below in case this thread goes on for a while and others can then see them more easily. It's certainly a puzzler and bizarre looking bird.

http://surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20071204043539.jpg

http://surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20071204043410.jpg

http://surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20071204043225.jpg

By the way, the Dutch also have hybrid grebe issues (http://bigbirdingblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/monday-october-29-hilarious-hybrid.html).

[Josh Jones]

Apologies to resurrect this thread. I think the Oman grebe species may well be a hybrid Little X Slavonian - although superficially Slavonian-looking in the bottom image posted out of the three above, it looks much more Little-like in the other two, so I feel the suggestion that this is a hybrid between the two could well be the correct diagnosis!


As for the Dutch "Pied-billed" Grebe, from the photos I can't see any features whatsoever to suggest that it is anything but a Little Grebe - the only odd thing is it floating about on the sea, as opposed to being on a pond somewhere.

[AndyB]

For anyone who wants to see the photo of the Dutch bird Josh is referrring to (and also in Bobolink's post), it was posted on ID Discussion Gallery (http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/gallery/display.cgi?gallery=gallery28) a few months back but here's the direct link:

"Grebe sp., The Netherlands, Vlieland 28/10/2007 © Martijn Bot Pied-billed x Little grebe hybrid, aberrant Little grebe, other option? Comments very welcome! (http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20071029032936.jpg)"

Martin says there are more on his site (http://martijnbot.fotopic.net/) but I haven't had a chance to find them

[Colin Key]

I have to agree with Josh that I can see nothing but Little Grebe in the rather poor shot of the Dutch bird.

As for the Oman bird, different lighting and camera angles are producing significantly different effects. Pure Little Grebe this is definitely NOT (based on structure, head size in relation to body, and bill shape and size), but the third photo in Bobolink44's post above is saying Red-necked Grebe for me, BUT with the possibility of genes from another grebe species.

Grebes in non-breeding plumage are difficult at the best of times and even with good views an isolated, single bird can be confusing.

Colin :err:

[Andrew Harrop]

Since this bird does not look like a typical Slavonian Grebe I suppose we should be cautious, especially since it would be a national first.

Grebe hybrids seem to be genuinely rare. McCarthy (2006) in his 'Handbook of Avian Hybrids of the World' lists hybrids between Slavonian and Black-necked, Great Crested and Red-necked, and Pied-billed and Little, but none between Slavonian and Little.

In June-July 2006 a Slavonian Grebe bred with a Great Crested Grebe in central England (documented in Brit. Birds 100: 381). The offspring did not survive (both predated by a Great Cormorant), but this may be another possibility which should be considered.

The posted photos are of course useful, but it would be helpful to have a full description of the bird before coming to a view on its identification. For example, I wonder what the open wing looked like.