Moltoni's Subalpine Warbler

[Brian S]

I was checking out Roy Harvey's video of UK rarities http://surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2593, where I watched with interest his video of the putative Moltoni's Subalpine Warbler. It is a shame this elusive bird was so quiet, and I know of few people that say they heard it call. One thing is certain,having seen this and many abroad and at Tring, the colour of the underparts does not seem to meet my expectations of what moltoni looks like.

The colour of moltoni below is a dusty pink, and being an adult male the Norfolk bird should be fairly typical in colour even if it is obscured by pale fringes. If you check out the video and the images of the bird posted on surfbirds UK stop press photo gallery, you will see that the colour is distinctly orange on all images. The colour is consistent and extends along the flanks. besides this there is no colour difference to go on - there is a tendency for the colour of the upperparts to be the palest grey of the four Subalpine subspecies.

The call is very important, but I would like to hear a recording of it, so if any does have video of the bird calling or singing then please post it - it would certainly help.



Brian Small

[Roy Harvey]

Hi Brian,
Thanks very much for your valued comments.
As you may have seen in the most recent Birding World magazine - Volume 20 no. 11, it was identifed as 'Moltoni's Subalpine Warbler' in an article by Mark Golley. Several eminent birders, including Mark & Richard Millington, heard it call.
After editing, I have about three minutes of video footage of it but in none of this does the bird call, nor was it heard to call whilst we were there.
I would just make the point that the plumage colour of the sequence in the video section is a little washed-out compared with how it looks on the DVD.

Regards,
Roy.

[LeeEvans]

Hi Brian

Both Richard Millington and Mark Golley informed me that they had both heard the bird call on at least one occasion at very close range and that the sound made was diagnostic of this form. They were absolutely definite about this even after I reiterated it. I have no reason to doubt their integrity and hold both observers in the highest esteem.

In the field, I felt that the tones of the bird DID fall within the variation of shade most frequently associated with Moltoni's Subalpine.

All the very best

Lee G R Evans

[Brian S]

Lee

When you say 'variation in shade most associated with moltonii' what do you mean?

1. 'shade' is light and dark - as in tone; do you mean hue or strength of colour or what?

2. If you mean 'hue' then could you please elucidate what variation there exists as I am keen to be educated. Having seen moltonii in Mallorca and Corsica and studied them at Tring, I find very little variation in the colour of moltonii.

Danielle Ochiato has some pictures at his site, but these are from Italy and seem in the images rather orange
http://www.pbase.com/dophoto/sylviidae

There are several on the surfbirds stop press photo gallery shown below - I hope the photographers don't mind me using them here. Look at the colour and compare them with that which appears above: questions arise. Why is there a difference between the strength of colour on the throat and the flanks, for example?

Brian

[markriley]

Hi Brian,

You are right that many of the images do seem orange, however not all. I remember at the time that pictures seemed far more orange than the bird did in the field. I have seen MSW on Majorca an felt happy with the id particularly as some had heard the call, although I did not.

regards

Mark

[Brian S]

Mark

Thanks for your comments. I have now seen the Birding World article and it is hard to argue against the call, though 'trrrrut' might be deemed a little odd as it suggests a hard end.

There is one more thing, on those moltoni I have seen, I have often noted that the edges to the tertials and coverts are grey - even when fresh, and are reminiscent of albistriata in this respect. [Indeed, one additional feature of 1st-summer albistriata compared with cantillans is the blue-grey edges to the tertials]. However, on these images they seem distinctly brown edged, very like fresh cantillans.

Brian

[markriley]

Brian,

Of interest is the Portland bird April 1975, see BW Vol14, No11. This was a good candidate for moltoni's, including call. It was not accepted.

Regards

Mark

[Brian S]

Mark

I do not think that the Portland Subalpine stands up to too much close attention. There are, I believe, some that heard it call like a normal Subalp.

Brian

[macrourus]

Could anyone post a pictures of this disputed Subalpine... ??

please


Andrea Corso
Sicily
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[AndyB]

Hi Andrea, here is a link to Roy Harvey's video (http://surfbirds.com/video2/view_video.php?viewkey=b703e6acf9c726942a1e&page=1&viewtype=&category=mr) that has a short amount of footage towards the end of the video.

Below are all the photos I could find of this bird:

Subalpine Warbler, Norfolk, Burnham Overy Dunes 01/10/07 © Dave Curtis (http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20071001022233.JPG)

Subalpine Warbler, Norfolk, Burnham Overy 01 10 07 © steve morgan (http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20071001045827.jpg)

Subalpine Warbler, Norfolk, Burnham Overy Dunes 04/10/07 © MICK GREEN (http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20071005081411.jpg)

Subalpine Warbler, Norfolk, Burnham Overy dunes 04/10/07 © James Hunter (http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20071005120242.jpg)

Subalpine Warbler, Norfolk, Burnham Overy Dunes 04/10/07 © Ian Goodall (http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20071005013421.jpg)

Subalpine Warbler, Norfolk, Burnham Overy Dunes 4th October 2007 © Jim Swalwell (http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20071005033305.jpg)

Subalpine Warbler, Norfolk, Burnham Overy Dunes 2/10/07 © David Moreton (http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20071007055820.jpg)

Subalpine Warbler, Norfolk, Burnham overy dunes 5/10/07 © Robert Brown (http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20071009111156.jpg)

We all look forward to hearing your thoughts. Best, Andy

[Brian S]

Andrea

It would be great to have your views on this bird.

The sixth image Andy links is the best image from the front showing the coloration as in the video. I just can't see moltonii having that strength of colour on the throat contrasting with the rest of the colour on the underparts. See Kit Day's image of another bird - the second image I posted above, which is a presumed cantillans at Stanpit Dorset - and matches it closely.

Brian S

[macrourus]

Hi Brian, Andy and all,

well, first of all I had to admitt I'm not sure about its ageing and sexing... it is a 1st y male or and old female, it is a 1st s. male or adult autumn male??

Judging from what I can barely see there is no moult contrast over the PC and GC (primary ad greater coverts) and on Alula fethers... also the iris does not seems ok for a fully adult male... then I would guess its not a fully adult bird... also, its an autumn bird...

having said this, I believe it is almost impossible to discuss about contrast over throat and flanks or vent-belly and about hue, colour gradient, strenght and so on on most autumn and non adult birds...

Even within adult its rather hard often for some main reasons:

1) how be absolutely sure about a slight and delicate hue or strenght of colour and even about the right slightly different colour itself (when deep orange, bright orange, pinkish orange, orangey-brick, salmom-pink etc...) from video footage or different photos, all of them differently done with different exposure, different home cropping and remanipulation with photoshop or like so??? As we all know, a gull could look with a shade (is in this case right the English word?? ) of grey on mantle one second and then just turning or just changing a little the light could appear different...

of course, in hue or strenght of colours, this is harder and not as dramatic as in shade... but still should be taken into consideration...

2) we should judge and discuss about exact hue or strenght of colour or contrast between throat and flanks and belly in SPRING bird, in autumn all these became extremely complicated.

3) indeed, a VERY TYPICAl moltonii has uniformly, often extensively, salmon-pink underparts, very delicate and not really bright and colourfull.. that's right...however, in last years we started to reconsider and re-study all the Subalpine over Italy and see how most popultion in central to NW Italy are indeed moltonii... and they breed sympatrically (Brambilla et al. IBIS 2006; pers. obs.) with cantillans in several areas. Mixed pairs or proven hybrids have not - YET- been found by some in detail studies (ex. Brambilla et al. IBIS 2006) but I've seen several birds in Tuscany, Lazio, and close regions showing plumage hard to judge. As in Daniele Occhiato great web page, mentioned by Brian, you may see some perfect moltonii but other showing intriguing characters.

I know Daniele has identified them by call... Look chiefly the last 2 pictures of the page... there is a quite obvious contrast between throat and lower vent/flank...

So, there is indeed a sort of variability on moltonii charcaters, as in fact it is absolutely normal in any animal taxa... if there are hybrids too I can't be sure... but would not be a surprise at all...

Something that should be taken in mind and that I often noticed in Sicily tyring to find out migrating albistriata, is that young adult Subalpine very often show richer coloured throat then lower breast/belly/flanks... as this could be also not age-related in some birds but just within a normal variability. So, many cantillans and inornata indeed show richely coloured throat and far much paler lower breast and rest of underparts. Therefore why not moltonii, even if rarely or untypically.


All this to say that I can't see how to be sure on my point of view form the pictures I've seen of this putative moltonii, that the doubt by Brian are right but would not rule out moltonii, as I would not also say it is a cantillans for sure. So, I think in such cases, and mostly in autumn bird, we should mostly rely and necesserly heard the call... this is yes as a Wren, but could be rarely something sounding like "t-t-t-t" quick and given together with the Wren-like or at the end...

In Sicily, I heard some bird uttering the call of cantillans and then something like albistriata, and some of them were breeding.

So, I suggest to identify with certainity only the very typical birds in ALL respect.

Hopefully I menaged to be clear enough with by bad English

Ciao

Andrea Corso


PS: I never noticed about the colour and pattern of the tertials within the taxa of Subalpine as reported by brian, indeed I checked some photos and seen that this is visible in many birds as he wrote us, but I do not know at the moment how much rely and trust this difference.
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[Brian S]

Andrea

Thanks for your well-considered reply, which probably adopts the cautious tone I should take.

I understand your concern about using the colour reproduction of images in order to assess the very subtle colour differences of moltonii, but in my opinion there is a certain uniformity amongst the images, which suggests that not all of them are wrong.

I spent some time yesterday back at Tring, and saw from your labels that you have obviously examined the specimens. I was trying to accurately describe the colour of moltonii in comparison with the other subspecies, particularly regarding age and time of year, and after a while began to get an eye for the colour.

I would describe the colour of the throat and breast of moltonii as 'dusty pink' or 'brownish pink', it definitely has a hint of brown making it look quite dirty. This closely matches my notes from birds seen in the field in Corsica. In comparison, the colour of both albistriata and cantillans are stronger and cleaner; deeper and redder in the former and more orange in the latter, especially on the throat and breast. I would not say that any of the specimens have a 'salmon-pink' hue (this suggests a purer, slightly orange colour), indeed this would seem a much better desciption of the colour of cantillans in autumn

As you know, there are autumn specimens of male moltonii at Tring and these have exactly the same colour as those in spring, with no orange hue at all.

This has been a most informative process, and I would like to see some photos from Corsica and the Balearics in the autumn.

Brian S

[macrourus]

When I reported salmon-pink for moltonii, is that because I used sensu Hadoram et al. 2000, the Sylvia Warblers... but would not be my definition of moltonii colour...however, please take into consideration that English is not my lenguage and its extremely hard to me to translate from Italian, often something in italian once traslated sounds completely different from English 8this caused me also several problem with edited artciles in British birds, BWorld, and other magazines such as article on Black Kite, Black-headed Wagtails etc....).

You're right that autumn male are same colour hue, but I meant that several autumn birds, chiefly 1st y or 2nd y due pose ID problems and therefore require, at least for me (may be I'm not that good on Sylvia as on raptors ;-) may pose difficulties in judging contrast between throat and flanks and other characters...
However, please notice, may be I was not really clear on that, that my worries was not mainly on the colour or the right colour (this was just marginal matter) but ont he difficulties posed by the uniformity of the underparts, its pattern, its useful, etc. by the possibilities of hybrids, by the fact that there was much least and scant knowledge about true moltonii distribution in italy also up to Shirihai et al. and so on.

I hope you do not took my mail as against your points but only as a personal wrning about the difficulties in identifyng many or at least some autumn birds, and that we have to rely mostly on call on those birds and all the characters.

All the best Brian

Andrea

PS. as you see, is time for you to work on a fresher and updated study of those little birds with your gorgeous artworks ;-)
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[Brian S]

Andrea

Your comments have been excellent and your English is fine. Many thanks.

Brian S