Isabelline Wheatear? (Scilly, Oct '07)

[appleton.dave]

James and Niall Machin found a pale Wheatear on Peninnis Head (St Mary's, Scilly, UK) on 3rd October 2007 which they felt was possibly an Isabelline Wheatear.

They released the news as a possible and I, along with about 15-20 others, saw the bird during the evening. I am not familiar with Isabelline Wheatear but this bird did not match my expectation of the species and I went away believing that it was an unusually pale and long-legged Northern Wheatear. There didn't appear to any strong support from other observers in either direction but my impression was that the balance of opinion leaned towards Northern (with most sitting on the fence). So far as I know the bird was not present the following day and was not seen by any observers who were very familiar with Isabelline Wheatear.

Niall has recently shown my photos to a number of experienced birders who have lent support to his original identification as Isabelline Wheatear.

I will be more than happy (if a little embarrassed) if this bird can be shown to be Isabelline and not Northern as I had originally presumed. We would be interested to hear your views. I have posted photos and some notes at http://www.gobirding.eu/Photos/PaleWheatear.php.

Cheers,
Dave Appleton

[Brian S]

Dave

A very interesting bird, and one that highlights nicely the pitfalls that pale Northern Wheatears pose.

Structurally, this might at first glance look good for Isabelline, with long legs and a chunky bill, but there are other elements at odds, such as the long primary projection. This is variable on Isabelline, but typically shorter than Northern; and is the bill really all that chunky?

Plumage, again looks at first view very pale, but close attention to the centres of the coverts - which look quite dark - and the tone of the primaries themselves, that are also quite dark, raise questions about its true ID. The edges to the secondaries look quite warm-toned, especially when they are wet, as do other areas, and this would also suggest Northern.

The tail pattern seems to be fairly typical of Northern; a good feature of Isabelline not shown is the small and restricted area of white on the uppertail coverts and lower rump.

Taking a cautious stance on this, I would say this was a Northern on the evidence here.

Brian S

[Bobolink44]

That stance looks good for Isabelline but wish there were some photos without the drenched plumage. Interesting bird...

[Brian S]

Check out this link for images of the rump/uppertail covert pattern on spring Isabelline. Harder to see is the primary projection.

http://surfbirds.com/ID%20Articles/iswheatear03.html

Brian S

[CAU]

Hello!

I would disagree with Brian, at least to my eyes the bird looks more like an Isabelline Wheatear than a Northern Wheatear.

First of all, at least to my eyes the bird has a short primary projection, that looks perfectly good for Isabelline and shorter than on average Northern Wheatears. This is evident from the first three pictures, which show the bird dry. When the bird is wet, the primary projection looks longer (and more primary tips are visible), but in my opinion this is just due to the soaked tertials.

Secondly, the tail pattern is well within the variation of Isabelline Wheatear (and the amount of white that is visible is partly increased due to the rectrices being spread outwards). Compare to these:

http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=98389&sid=36f529d0b5d485cf709d2f73fed25b0e
http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=74324&sid=36f529d0b5d485cf709d2f73fed25b0e

Thirdly, I don't think that it is a good idea to judge the colour of wet secondaries or wing coverts. When the bird is dry, the colour of the edges of the secondaries is well visible and is clearly pale sandy brown, not rufous brown, thus perfectly good for Isabelline. The colour of the edges of the upperwing coverts is the same, which is of course typical, as the edges of the secondaries and wing coverts are usually of the same colour on wheatears.

The entire wing covert field looks paler than the mantle when the bird is dry. When the coverts become wet, especially the pale edges consisting of only fringes are affected, clumping together and changing colour. As is clear even from this link, the centres of the upperwing coverts can actually be rather dark on Isabelline Wheatears:

http://surfbirds.com/ID%20Articles/iswheatear03.html

Forthly, I agree that the primaries look blackish, but that doesn't rule out Isabelline Wheatear, compare to this:

http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=35448&sid=6c9824ea6fd7302c5c043ed0534f9ad1

Structurally the bird looks good for Isabelline, much better than for Northern Wheatear. The bill is chunky (at least in my opinion), the legs are long and the bird looks big headed and front heavy.

The general colour is good for Isabelline, and the pattern of the head perfect. The supercilium is pronounced only in front of the eye and the bird has a dark eye-stripe, but not contrasting ear coverts, in contrast to normal Northern Wheatears.

To conclude, I really can't say if enough details are visible on the photos to identify the bird as an Isabelline Wheatear, but in my opinion it looks much like one, and I oppose identifying it as a Northern Wheatear.

[CAU]

Just to add to my preivous post:
Open these images in different windows and compare them side by side:

http://www.gobirding.eu/Images/Passerines/ChatsEtc/Wheatear/paleWheatear/New%20Folder/pale%20Wheatear,%20Penninis,%203-Oct-07%20(A2)%20L.JPG
http://www.club300.se/images/Gallery/large/isabella031102-CR-2.jpg
http://www.club300.se/images/Gallery/large/isabella031104_BD.jpg

Compare for example the facial pattern, the general colour, the length of the primary projection, the colour of the secondaries, the size of the bill, the stance...I think it is pretty obvious that even the Scilly bird is an Isabelline Wheatear.

Finally, here's one additional picture showing the tail pattern of an Isabelline Wheatear:
http://www.club300.se/images/Gallery/large/isabella031104-MA-1.jpg

[Brian S]

Hi CAU

Thanks for the good reply.

I can see the similarities between the photos you link and the Scilly bird, but I also see some differences. To start with here are three:-

1. The base of the secondaries on the Scilly bird has a strange dark shadow next to the greater covert bar. This can often be seen on Northern.

2. The primary coverts are relatively dark, lacking the often broad pale creamy fringes of Isabelline.

3. I still find the actual fringes of the coverts and secondaries a touch warm (slightly rufous) for Isabelline.

Look at the attached images of Northern Wheatears from the surfbirds galleries. all are from the autumn/winter.

Brian S

Brian

[CAU]

Hi CAU

Thanks for the good reply.

I can see the similarities between the photos you link and the Scilly bird, but I also see some differences. To start with here are three:-

1. The base of the secondaries on the Scilly bird has a strange dark shadow next to the greater covert bar. This can often be seen on Northern.

2. The primary coverts are relatively dark, lacking the often broad pale creamy fringes of Isabelline.

3. I still find the actual fringes of the coverts and secondaries a touch warm (slightly rufous) for Isabelline.

Look at the attached images of Northern Wheatears from the surfbirds galleries. all are from the autumn/winter.

Brian S

Brian

Hi Brian, and sorry for my exaggerated words in post #6. Wheatears are not always easy to identify, for example this Isabelline Wheatear caused some headache among experienced birdwatchers in Finland (photographed a few days before the Scilly bird):

http://www.bongariliitto.fi/kuvat/20_Varpuslinnut/20h_Rastaat/2_Taskut/oenisa_20070929_dragsf_norjy/001.jpg

Regarding the Scilly bird, I'm still in the Isabelline camp due to the head pattern and the structure...but of course it is not my task to identify it.

[Brian S]

CAU - it would be good to know your real name

Your comments have been excellent, many thanks.

The Finnish bird is very much like the Scilly bird, and I have had another look at the photos. My comments urge caution and it may well be that the Scilly bird is indeed an Isabelline - though a complete field description will help.

Thanks again

Brian S

[appleton.dave]

Thanks for your informed comments and helpful links - perhaps I was too hasty in dismissing this as a pale Northern. Certainly the two species can be closer in appearance than I had appreciated.

[Sean Cole]

Hi all

New to the Surfbirds forums so be kind!

To me, and very unscientifically, this bird very much has the feel of an Isabelline.

CAU has done a very good summary, but to add to it my own feelings based on initial impressions and no reference to literature:

1. Head pattern - complete lack of dark ear coverts, just a dark line along the upper edge. Thick black loral line
2. Stance and shape; upright stance, pointed sharp bill, small-headed appearance
3. General consistent colouration throughout, with a general lack of contrast to any of the individual colour blocks (body plumage, wings etc).

The wet plumage confuses matters in my opinion, but on the pics where the bird is dry I would have called it as an Issy without hesitation.

Sean

[forktail]

This forum is certainly throwing up some interesting birds!

It would be good to find out if the bird had a pale underwing, restricted white on the rump, or if any kind of venetian blind effect was noted on the remiges when it flew.

Given we only have a few pix to deal with and most are of a damp bedraggled bird in which the tone of the upperparts, for example, varies wildly (just check the lower pix on Dave's webpage!), it may be another one that got away. I would tend to ignore the damp pix for reason given by CAU above and only deal with the dry bird. The general pallidness looks very good for Isabelline (given the caveat above). I can't say I've seen a Northern this pale-looking in the field (it's almost the colour of milky tea), but then again photos can be deceptive and the paleness may be exaggerated as hinted in some of the damp shots.

The seemingly bland head pattern behind the eye and plain ear coverts point to Isabelline but I can't really say i find the bill that striking or that the bird looks chisel-headed. The covert and remige fringes look nice and pale, to my eyes, even paler than the mantle? and the median covert area looks especially pale (just about visible in Dave's first pic but it's a strain). Yes, the bird looks quite leggy but I find it difficult to say anything meaningful about either the tail pattern or primary projection, other than it seems to fit both quite well on the views available.

As Brian says, maybe a full description will take things further...

F.

[macrourus]

I have a real passion for Isabelline as it was my very 1st "rare" birds here down to Sicily as far back as 20 years ag? when I was a little passionate healthy child with binos bigger than my head... ;-)

Since then I've studied so far thousands... in WP and Asia ...


Again, as many times I tell to my "fellow birders' pupils" , the matter is far harder and more difficult than it may looks from field guides and litterature...

A first step on that, to explain the problem in Isabelline, was done by me in an Issue of Dutch Birding in 1997 (Vol. 17 n. 4) where I reported some notes about its variability ...

today, after 10 years, of course I would like to update it a lote, chiefly reporting not only Isabel variability but Northern terrific one too.

Usually in the field, with some experinec, is not that hard...usually... in fact I've seen sometimes some birds that required some 30 minutes to 1 h. to be sure whatever they were, and eventually they always finally proven to be very big, very pale, very bastar*** Northern, really tricky.

So, some oenanthe ssp. may prove to be quite confusing and indeed I got from Belgium, Holand, Finland and other countries photos of tricky bird to give help on...

First, the stance, so often reported, does not help at all... Isabel usually stand more upright, more tall, and more up and vertical on legs...ok... but Northern do it and often take exactly same position too... Also, Isabell are not stuffed or computerised machine so often they stand more relaxed, more orizontal on legs, chiefly if tired, whet, unhappy (yes unhappy, also birds and animal have feelings not only bloody human)...

Fringes on wing-feathers are USUALLY paler, less rusty or warm brown on Isabel, but I've seen some juv. with those fringes quite warm indeed.

Tail variable.... head in fact looking bigger and rounder than Northern not smaller... bill usually looking stronger, longer, heavier but variable having sen smaller and slender billed birds...rump usually less white but at times a bit more or hard to judge...primary porjection not so easy to judge and to use, better shorter tail projection but again often hard to use...

To be short, otherwise I see already some of you going suicide:

Most important are:

1) underwing as 1st !! However, note that some very pale Northern may show such broad grey-whitish or even greish-off white fringing to conceal and hide the dark underwing ... hard enough ??

2) TAIL pattern: but look at my article and see how some Isabell could have quite less black on tail

3) face pattern: in fact supercilium almost never broad behind eye, sometimes more than usual but ALWAYS paler in front of the eye and chiefly over lores; JUST THE OPPOSITE in any Northern I've seen (but I'm always open to learn and change my mind). Ear-coverts also paler, in most marked birds barely similar to least marked Northern. See again my article. Blind face expression. Throat, neck-side, upper breast usually richly coloured creamy buff contrasting with white chin and area around eye (moustachial, malar, submoustachial areas) etc.

4) VERY USEFULL: does not matter the widht of the fringings and their colour on GC, quite variably individually, seasonally, abrasion etc. etc.... BUT ALULA black contrasting with paler, less pure black, always tinged brown or brownish centre of GC. in Northern, even in the widest fringed pale bird, centre of individual GC same colour -or barely visible paler- as ALULA.


In conclusion, your bird I think its a darkish Isabelline ... tail pattern in flight shot ok, face pattern, ie supercilium pattern and colour, ear-coverts, etc. etc. ok, legs lenght ok (though they often are stronger, thicker), GC pattern and colour and patch effect ok, big eye effect on blind face ok, fringes to remiges and coverts and tertials a bit odd and worring but only one...

CDompare it with a wet Isabell on my article on figs. 158 and 162.


Cheers

Andrea Corso


PS: that's my opinion, does not means that IT WAS an Isabelline and field impressions, very detailed and good field notes and possibly sketches, and experineced birders there in the field more important than commenting on bad photos :-(
________
LIVE SEX (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[forktail]

tail pattern in flight shot ok,

Cheers

Andrea Corso



Hi Andrea, thanks for taking the time to post all of that. Very useful and a good reminder to all of us of the salient points. :swoon:

The flight shot at the bottom of Dave's page, however, is of a Northern Wheatear taken earlier the same day.

F.

[macrourus]

Of COURSE; I'm quite able to read...its clearly indicated... thanks...

I meant that despite the comment on the flyght shot reported as oddity in some Northern Wheater, possibly to indicate how strange Northern W. could appear and therefore putting toward an odd oenanthe, I was just writing that this is ok, no problem for our bird and not telling us anything warring, but OK!! Of course, thank to have pointed to this, I thought was clear, but again, in italian words and way to talk sounds different and to express always what I mean in English is not that easy for me. Sorry...
To check tail pattern and why I reported ok, please check again my article with drawing on tail variability.

In the mentioned bird, even if I was not able to read english, its even too evident and visible as GC and MC centres are as black as Alula, same for tertials ...etc.

Sorry again for the misleading sentence, I thought was obvious but its always better to take in mind that could not be the same for who is reading...
________
ECIGARETTE FORUM (http://www.ecigarettes123.com/)

[Sean Cole]

Buona sera Andrea!

Thanks for your excellent summary.

To qualify my comment about head size, I genuinely think that Isabelline looks small-headed. This may be an impression caused by the larger bill and the way it seems to be placed on top of the body rather than smoothly emerging from it (if you understand what I mean). It could also be an impression gained from the plain head pattern.

Perhaps this kind of feature is not relevant when used to support a description, as everyone's interpretation of these things is different.

By the way I will be visiting Toscana at the end of this month - is there anything I should be looking out for?? (going to Roccalbegna).

Sean

[macrourus]

Coudl you write me private so I can help you with birding there, good stuff around chifly raptors...

Admin edited post to remove Andrea's email address to prevent spammers from getting it.
________
GLASS PIPES CHEAP (http://glassgallery.tumblr.com)

[Sean Cole]

Hi Andrea,

I have made a note of your Email address. It would be wise to remove it from the public forum to prevent lots of spam!!

Sean

[Roy Harvey]

Further to discussions regarding the identity of the pale wheatear that was on the Scillies, I have video footage of this bird that was taken by Pete Hall.
Pete has kindly given permission for me to use the attached video grabs in the hope that they might help identification.

Roy

[Sean Cole]

Thanks Roy

The bird looks completely different in these photo's, and looks much more like a pale Northern now!

The head pattern looks like a pale version of NW, the jizz and proportions look different, and the wings simply look too dark and contrasting.

Sean

[jamesg]

Can this really be the same bird?

If it is, I'm never trusting a photograph again....

[Niall]

I think maybe Roy's photos from Pete Hall refer to the bird seen earlier in the day on Peninnis and photographed by Dave Appleton that had a more extensive black tail - which Dave refers to in his account - and is a northern. This is a different bird than the 'pale wheatear' seen late in the day and which is the subject to this discussion thread - various differences including bill size/shape, face pattern, darker coverts, primary projection etc. Dave has posted pictures of this bird on flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/93372558@N00/1571288177/

[macrourus]

This one is quite different and is easely spotted as a pale NW...with lote of differences already rightly menitoned by Niall
________
black girl Cams (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/webcam/ebony-girls/)

[jamesg]

I hope you're right Niall, otherwise photo-effects have been taken to a whole new level here...

Cheers for the link to Dave Appleton's Flickr page, where I also found this nice picture of the genuine Issy candidate:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/93372558@N00/1571288131/in/photostream/

The wing is wet again unfortunately, but the contrast between the alula and the rest of the coverts is shown very nicely.

A quick question - how useful are the lesser coverts as a feature for autumn Isabellines? Northerns always seem to show very black-centred lesser coverts, but is this universal? Could 1w females show more brownish centres, or will they always be blackish?

You can clearly see the blackish lesser covert centres on all the pale Northerns posted previously by Brian:
http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=125&d=1199217280

http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127&d=1199217298

http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=126&d=1199217288

On Isabelline, they always seem to be pale and lacking contrast:
http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=35448&sid=6c9824ea6fd7302c5c043ed0534f9ad1

The candidate bird looks very good in this respect:
http://www.gobirding.eu/Photos/PaleWheatear.php

Anyone know if this might be diagnostic?

[appleton.dave]

Just to confirm, the bird in the video grabs from Pete Hall is a different bird to the pale bird that might be an Issy. Apart from anything else the putative Issy wasn't in a ploughed field (although of course it might have been before I arrived). It could be the same bird that I photographed earlier in the day but if so then the pale appearance in the video grab is not a true reflection of how it appeared in the field. Possibly worth clarifying too that I'm not 100% sure that the definite Northern Wheatear on Flickr which Niall kindly linked to was the same bird as the one appearing to have an unusual tail pattern, though it was one of the same two birds consorting together.

By the way, the photo of the Issy candidate of Flickr is the same photo as one on the original link to my gobirding.eu website, but following adjustments in Photoshop - all the photos on the gobirding.eu page are unedited originals (except cropping and resizing).

Again, thanks for everyone's input on this.

[jamesg]

In a bid to answer my own question regarding lesser covert patterns, I did a quick trawl of web photos of both species.

It seems to me that both lesser and median covert pattern could be helpful, although probably not diagnostic, with first winters.

The vast majority of autumn Northerns pictured on the web show clear blackish centres to the lesser coverts (where visible) - I only found one image of a bird apparently lacking these black centres, which was this one:
http://www.ruchet.com/traquet-motteux.html (maybe they are hidden by the scaps?)

On the other hand, all the autumn Northerns I found showed clear blackish centres to the median coverts (even the bird above).

For Isabellines, almost all pics of autumn birds showed plain sandy lesser and median coverts, lacking contrast, like this bird (http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=35448&sid=6c9824ea6fd7302c5c043ed0534f9ad1)that I linked above.

A couple of examples showed darker centres to the medians, approaching the pattern shown by Northern:
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=2175

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=2177

My (possibly premature) conclusion from this would be that an autumn bird with completely plain sandy lesser and median coverts would most likely be an Isabelline, whilst one with very clear blackish centres would most likely be a Northern. A bird with slightly darker centres could probably be either species.

This photo of the Scilly bird (http://www.gobirding.eu/Images/Passerines/ChatsEtc/Wheatear/paleWheatear/New%20Folder/pale%20Wheatear,%20Penninis,%203-Oct-07%20(A2)%20L.JPG)(when dry) certainly seems to show very plain and sandy median and lesser coverts, lacking any contrast.

I'd say this puts me firmly in the Isabelline camp. The only feature that still troubles me is the long primary projection in relation to the tail - Isabellines tending to show more tail beyond the end of the primaries. But I'm sure this is variable.

Isabelline for me.

[appleton.dave]

Well, I understand from Niall that this bird has now been accepted as an Isabelline Wheatear! Congratulations Niall and James and well done for sticking to your guns. And thanks again to everyone for your helpful comments.

[birdertrev]

The original post from Dave stated that his bird was October 2007, and Roys clearly shows a bird dated October 2008, so apart from looking like very different birds they are actually a year apart. !
:laugh:

Trev

[appleton.dave]

Roys clearly shows a bird dated October 2008, so... they are actually a year apart. ! :laugh:
Trev
October 2008? In that case he did very well indeed to post the images here in January 2008!

[birdertrev]

I'm just saying that's what date is shown on the pic details.

Trev

[Jrhough1]

First reaction on opening the images..and I'm late to the party, I know is that it looks like an Issy Wheatear - first three images show the nice sandy grey plumage with the centres to the tertials are rather muted brown (not blackish-brown and thus not contrasting), the dark alula feather seems to be present in some of the bedraggled shots and the tail pattern seems OK.
The head pattern, with a rather whitish throat contrasting with a peachier hue on the neck sides also combines to give a rather typical Issy feel.

It reminds me of the two birds I've seen on Scillies (Golf Course late eighties?) and one on Gugh (early 90s) - the dates escape me, but I remember the first one being particulalry well-recieved...not least by me, who was on Tresco when news broke of a "possible Issy Wheatear on Mary's".

Nothing more annoying and frustrating than hearing those words "annually" and realising you have to go for insurance purposes in case it really was one...
I remember arriving at the quay on Tresco to be met by Pete Lansdown, the then Chairman of the BBRC and author of an id. feature on Issy Wheatear.
He had just seen the bird and commented he didn't feel good about it being one and was probably a Northern.

So, you can imagine my surprise when I got there, having the expectation that the bird would be a Pale Northern to be greeted by a bird that, to a teenage upstart who didn't know any better, was a pretty good Issy Wheatear! Oo..err! tick!

Anyway, I digress I just think it's rather an amusing id. conundrum all birders that have sopent time on the Scillies can sympathise, and occasionally rejoice over!

Julian

[jamesg]

Thought I'd drag this one back up as I noticed there's now a note on the website saying it has been accepted as Isabelline by the BBRC.

http://www.gobirding.eu/Photos/PaleWheatear.php

It's a relief - I was genuinely worried I'd have to ignore all autumn wheatears in future if this one went down as a Northern.

I wonder which features the panel considered to be the clinchers? I guess it's possible some other pics or details came to light in descriptions, eg underwing pattern / tail... Or maybe they were convinced purely on the basis of these pics?

Anyone got any fresh opinions on whether any of the plumage features visible in these pics might be considered 'diagnostic'? I'd still like to think that the lack of contrast across the mantle, scaps, wing coverts (particularly lessers) and remiges shown by this bird would never be possible on a Northern...

[Collalba]

Thought I'd drag this one back up as I noticed there's now a note on the website saying it has been accepted as Isabelline by the BBRC.

http://www.gobirding.eu/Photos/PaleWheatear.php

It's a relief - I was genuinely worried I'd have to ignore all autumn wheatears in future if this one went down as a Northern.

I wonder which features the panel considered to be the clinchers? I guess it's possible some other pics or details came to light in descriptions, eg underwing pattern / tail... Or maybe they were convinced purely on the basis of these pics?

Anyone got any fresh opinions on whether any of the plumage features visible in these pics might be considered 'diagnostic'? I'd still like to think that the lack of contrast across the mantle, scaps, wing coverts (particularly lessers) and remiges shown by this bird would never be possible on a Northern...

Hi James,

You need go no further than the excellent posts from CAU. However, and a point worth a mention, did you notice the lack of spotted trousers (tibia feathering). I have ringed 000's of Northern, but only 00's IBs. None of the IBs had spotted plumage on the tibia, whilst NWs are 'never' without them.

Just a point of interest for the folk who contributed to and followed this excellent thread.

Peter :beer: