Trouble identifying this plover....

[David in Miyazaki]

Seen today in an inlet. Miyazaki Prefecture, Kyushu, Japan. If someone could give me some advice on which plover, that would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Colin Key]

Looks like juvenile Ringed Plover (Charadrius hiaticula) to me, unless there is a similar species over there that I am not aware of (not really "up" on Asian species).

Colin

[AndyB]

Hi David, do you have an even larger version of this photo? Would be good to see a bit more head and bill detail.

[chandan]

Could it be a Greater sand plover???
On second thought,most likely to be a Common ringed plover.

[Graham Etherington]

Chandad,
The white collar rules out any of the Sandplovers.
Cheers,
Graham

[Colin Key]

It is the white in front of the eye which worries me; is Semipalmated a possibility in Japan?

Colin

[Brian S]

It's not a great image, but do you think this might be a Kentish Plover?

It's a bit hunched up making it look a little odd, but if you enlarge it the black breast side patches do not meet across the front of the breast. The white on the forehead and above the lores sometimes only reaches the eye on Kentish, whilst I would expect a rear supercilium on a Ringed or Semi-p - on a Semi-p the rear super often dinks down to the rear of the eye, to a point below the level of the eye-line. the legs seem to have a non-descript greyish flesh colour I associate with Kentish.

Brian S

[Colin Key]

I think Brian might be correct. Can't do much to improve this image but the white in front of the eye and continuing round onto the forehead does suggest Kentish. I don't think that anything can be gleaned regarding leg colour from this. Do Kentish occur in Japan?

Colin


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/Ploversp.jpg

[Bobolink44]

There's no chance this could be Little-ringed is there? No experience with Long-billed Plover but would this species show more of a rear supercilium?

[Colin Key]

There's no chance this could be Little-ringed is there? No experience with Long-billed Plover but would this species show more of a rear supercilium?

Nope, could not be LRP at this time of year.

Since my previous post I have taken my doggie for her afternoon walk around the marsh in front of my house and have looked at hundreds (literally) of Ringed and Kentish Plovers. On the basis of this very poor photo (sorry David) the bird could be either juv. Ringed or adult winter Kentish. I think I would go back to my initial ID as juv. Ringed, but I do not think that the small amount of detail in this photo will get us any further.

Colin :beer:

[Bobolink44]

That's true, I guess if we look at the candidates based on range and season of birds in Japan, (from 2005 Shorebirds book so not sure how accurate it is)

Ringed Plover - looks like just spring and autumn migrant and does not winter
Little-ringed Plover - look like it winters south of Japan
Kentish Plover - looks like resident just south of Japan - does the green blob include Kyushu?
Long-billed Plover - resident

If the map does have it resident, then presumbaly plumage fits better for Kentish than Long-billed?

Because I was curious about Long-billed Plover and not seen many photos, I did a google search. Not many non-breeding photos on web - if you try a google search - alot of sandplover photos being labelled as long-billed. Anyway, Dick Newell's site has some lovely adult birds (http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=521&show_thumbnails=True) and here's a couple more (http://birdgraphic.blog72.fc2.com/blog-category-56.html).

On a side note, you must check out Jan Schol's China album (http://www.pbase.com/ranschols/vogel__birdtrip_china_may_2005). Some lovely passerines!

[Colin Key]

That's true, I guess if we look at the candidates based on range and season of birds in Japan, (from 2005 Shorebirds book so not sure how accurate it is)

Ringed Plover - looks like just spring and autumn migrant and does not winter
Little-ringed Plover - look like it winters south of Japan
Kentish Plover - looks like resident just south of Japan - does the green blob include Kyushu?
Long-billed Plover - resident

If the map does have it resident, then presumbaly plumage fits better for Kentish than Long-billed?

Because I was curious about Long-billed Plover and not seen many photos, I did a google search. Not many non-breeding photos on web - if you try a google search - alot of sandplover photos being labelled as long-billed. Anyway, Dick Newell's site has some lovely adult birds (http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=521&show_thumbnails=True) and here's a couple more (http://birdgraphic.blog72.fc2.com/blog-category-56.html).

On a side note, you must check out Jan Schol's China album (http://www.pbase.com/ranschols/vogel__birdtrip_china_may_2005). Some lovely passerines!

Not bad, but I found most of these images rather "soft" and the file-sizes are way too small.

If you want to see photos of Asian birds from "The Man", look here: http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/profile Romy is a master, possibly the best.

Colin

[forktail]

It's not a great image, but do you think this might be a Kentish Plover?

It's a bit hunched up making it look a little odd, but if you enlarge it the black breast side patches do not meet across the front of the breast. The white on the forehead and above the lores sometimes only reaches the eye on Kentish, whilst I would expect a rear supercilium on a Ringed or Semi-p - on a Semi-p the rear super often dinks down to the rear of the eye, to a point below the level of the eye-line. the legs seem to have a non-descript greyish flesh colour I associate with Kentish.

Brian S

Yes, probably. :smile:

the breast markings are a good pointer to Kentish and away from other possibilities

Long-billed has a more distinctive jizz and is quite long-ended and would also show more of a breast band, Most Kentish are dark-legged, no? Although some have that weirdy paler colour you mention Brian. And does it have some rufous on the cap still? Or is it my eyes? Mmmm... it's the eyes, probably.

I remember spannering my first Long-billeds by overlooking them as LRPs (a much rarer bird where we were perversely... took two more years to get it back!:realmad:

F.

[Colin Key]

Yes, probably. :smile:

the breast markings are a good pointer to Kentish and away from other possibilities

Most Kentish are dark-legged, no? Although some have that weirdy paler colour you mention Brian.

F.

I do not think that breast markings are conclusive in differentiating between Ringed and Kentish as juveniles, 1st winter or even 2nd summer. The diversity in collar, supercilium and forehead markings is quite amazing, as is the variety of leg colouring. I have seen many juv RPs where the breast band is incomplete.

Attached are three shots of juvenile RPs, all different. I would maintain that I could, most of the time, distinguish between RP and KP purely on structure, and to me the bird in the photo is RP irrespective of plumage. As I said in an earlier post, there is not enough digital data in that photo to get much further and it is impossible to ascertain leg colour.

Colin

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J2415a.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J2427.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J4063a.jpg

[forktail]

I do not think that breast markings are conclusive in differentiating between Ringed and Kentish as juveniles, 1st winter or even 2nd summer. The diversity in collar, supercilium and forehead markings is quite amazing, as is the variety of leg colouring. I have seen many juv RPs where the breast band is incomplete.

Attached are three shots of juvenile RPs, all different. I would maintain that I could, most of the time, distinguish between RP and KP purely on structure, and to me the bird in the photo is RP irrespective of plumage. As I said in an earlier post, there is not enough digital data in that photo to get much further and it is impossible to ascertain leg colour.

Colin

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J2415a.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J2427.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J4063a.jpg

Colin

the breast markings in those links are much more extensive (both in width and in terms of how far they extend than I would expect to see on a Kentish and browner in hue/tone also. Certainly when combined with other features I think the breast markings are a reasonable feature

I'd also expect a Ringed to have more of an obvious supercilium behind the eye - unlike the mystery bird which looks Kentish in this area too, being slightly coffee coloured

the rear ends of birds in your links are also longer than a Kentish, showing obvious tail and primaries while the mystery photo appears more Kentish-like again here and I can't see any tail or primary extensions visible? The dark on the rear collar is also seemingly lacking (as on Kentish) but the bird is a little hunched...

still, not the best pic as you say.

F.

[Colin Key]

Hello "F", (and what is your "F"ing name? - I hate responding to these bloody pseudonyms),

I posted the three photos to show that there is a large amount of variation in juv RP plumage. None of the three I posted really illustrate what I have seen in the last couple of days, i.e that the breast can be very often incomplete in juv RP and that the head pattern is not at all predictable. I wonder if there is interbreeding between RP and KP?

The original photo posted on this thread is of very poor quality and does not have enough digital data for any enhancement. As I have stated in an earlier post, it is not possible (IMHO) to proceed any further on the basis of what we have been presented with. Any further musings are, I believe, just guesswork.

Colin

P.S. My intro is very "tongue in cheek", but I really do prefer to talk to people who are prepared to reveal themselves by name.

[David in Miyazaki]

Thanks for all your help. Andy Birch, you were asking about a bigger photo. I can send the original, but I will try and crop it even finer here. One thought I had was, what would the possibility that it is a Mongolian Plover?
I have included a slightly different angle as well.

[David in Miyazaki]

The other photo didn't upload with the last reply. So here we go.

[David in Miyazaki]

Colin, I like your photos. They are really sharp. My equipment doesn't allow me to get that close.

[David in Miyazaki]

How did you get the photos into the body of the text, Colin? I am quite new to this.

[AndyB]

Hi David, thanks for these photos as they are very helpful and finally nail it as a Kentish Plover. Congrats to Brian and Forktail for getting this right on the first go as it was a very tough one. Had me stumped. Your last photo is particularly useful in that it shows off the incomplete breast band and white breast nicely. Compare Colin's excellent and very instructive Ringed Plover photos above to your bird and these ones of Kentish Plover (http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/gallery/search2.cgi?species=kentish+plover) and note the shape and extent of the breast band and head pattern. Note the birds with black facial markings in that link are adults. Forktail has also listed some of the other features to look out for.

PS. To get photos in your posts like Colin, you click on the yellow square with a grey mountain icon in it and enter the web address of your photo. This only works if you have an online photo album that your photos are in eg Colin's photos above are actually at photobucket.com. For instance, you can create and upload your photos to a Surfbirds photo album at www.surfbirds.com/albums - after uploading a photo right click and view the image in a new window and copy and paste the web address (should look something like http://www.surfbirds.com/albums/1156/photo.jpg) in to your post by clicking the yellow mountain icon.

[David in Miyazaki]

Thanks Andy for that helpful comment about post photos in the text. I have opened a surfbirds album, so I will put some of my photos there and link it when asking questions of identification.

I really appreciate everyone's comments, and found it most instructive and helpful. So thanks again. I have been working on a small printed photo album of all the birds I have seen, so it is helpful to get an accurate identification for that.