Raptor ID please

[Jacqueline Burrell]

Seen in Cairo last December.

Jacqueline

[Colin Key]

Black Kite

Colin

[Brian S]

Jacqueline

I would call this a Yellow-billed Kite, as it is probably of the local form of Black Kite M. m. aegyptius, which has a more evenly coloured rufous body, a paler head than Black, and (believe it or not) a yellow bill - another form, parasiticus, occuring from Senegal across sub-saharan Africa to Madagascar, also has a yellow bill.

Not widely accepted as a split as a separate species, I suspect that in reality they are probably distinct enough to be treated as such.

Brian S

[macrourus]

Perfectly agree with Brian ... usually also narrower barring on tail and remiges, fractionally longer tail on average, less pale window or not at all on "hand" base. Head could be as pale as in old migrans.

Cheers

Andrea
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[Jacqueline Burrell]

With the sub-species [if that’s the correct term] I’m faced with in Egypt, it makes life even harder for an out and out birding beginner.

So, am I correct in identifying this one as Milvus migrans? It was also seen in Cairo.

[macrourus]

Again aYellow_billd one...look at the bill indeed ;-)
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[Colin Key]

With the sub-species [if that’s the correct term] I’m faced with in Egypt, it makes life even harder for an out and out birding beginner.

So, am I correct in identifying this one as Milvus migrans? It was also seen in Cairo.

Blimey Jacqueline, I think this would give a lot of people a bit of trouble. Pity the tail is not "spread" (in Milvis migrans, whatever sub-species, the spread tail is square-ended whereas in Milvus milvus it is always forked or at least concave). I have never seen a M. migrans with such a rufous underbody and for me, seeing it in the field in Western Europe it would be M. milvus.

Black Kite can be confusing, not just with age and geographical variation, but with different light conditions too. I do note that Forsman shows some ssp. aegyptius which are exceptionally rufous.

Colin

[macrourus]

Many Black kite are that rufous, chiefly in middle east to Noth-Est North Africa and that's because I wrote some years ag? a note on those plumages for Birding World (eventually not well edited or better, not well written by me in English and mis-interpreted as dealing with lineatus, but indeed just the opposite, telling that they were lineatus-like or lineatus-type as people call them or think, but indeed NOt being populations of Black kite) ...

Red Kite as always far far much white on inner primaries, this most important than tail shape (so variable according to moult, wear, individuals, races in migrans etc etc.) forming a wide inner hand wing "window" ... also have 4 to 5 "fingered" primary not 6 ...

Also different bill, different body, different remiges and rectrices barring etc. etc.

Ciao

Andrea
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[Colin Key]

Many Black kite are that rufous, chiefly in middle east to Noth-Est North Africa and that's because I wrote some years agò a note on those plumages for Birding World (eventually not well edited or better, not well written by me in English and mis-interpreted as dealing with lineatus, but indeed just the opposite, telling that they were lineatus-like or lineatus-type as people call them or think, but indeed NOt being populations of Black kite) ...

Red Kite as always far far much white on inner primaries, this most important than tail shape (so variable according to moult, wear, individuals, races in migrans etc etc.) forming a wide inner hand wing "window" ... also have 4 to 5 "fingered" primary not 6 ...

Also different bill, different body, different remiges and rectrices barring etc. etc.

Ciao

Andrea

I would beg to differ with you here Andrea, MANY Black Kite are not that rufous. This is one of the most common raptors here (SW Iberia) on migration (Milvus migrans is, I believe, still the world's commonest bird of prey?) and I see probably thousands every year. I have NEVER seen one with such rich, rufous body plumage as this.

Also, to talk about the whiteness on inner primaries is hardly relevant in this photograph because they are in total shadow to the extent that "white can become black".

Colin

[Jacqueline Burrell]

I would beg to differ with you here Andrea, MANY Black Kite are not that rufous. This is one of the most common raptors here (SW Iberia) on migration (Milvus migrans is, I believe, still the world's commonest bird of prey?) and I see probably thousands every year. I have NEVER seen one with such rich, rufous body plumage as this.

Also, to talk about the whiteness on inner primaries is hardly relevant in this photograph because they are in total shadow to the extent that "white can become black".

Colin

I am no expert as you are aware, but I feel I can comment that Black Kites are a common sight in Egypt and the reason I submitted this particular photo for comment was because of the rich rufous plumage that I had never seen before and caused me to be unsure of its identity.

Jacqueline

[Harry Hussey]

Hi there,
This latter bird, despite the disagreement that it has caused, is clearly an aegyptius Black Kite, and not a Red, due to the reasons given by AC. Also, while conceding that it is perhaps more rufous than most migrans Black Kites, it is certainly not unusual for birds of that race to be reasonably rufous-toned either...saw a few with marked rufous tones in southern Spain in May 2005 (and I can assure anyone who is wondering that, yes, we did check every kite seen for Reds!).

[Colin Key]

Hello Harry,

It is interesting that Jacqueline herself thought that this bird was exceptionally rufous coloured when she is presumably used to seeing Black Kites (aegyptius) in Egypt.

I have never see this sub-species nor did I know that the completely yellow bill is the major distinguishing feature until Brian pointed this out (and sent me delving into Dick Forsman's excellent book yet again!). Scrutinizing, at leisure, the latest photo which Jacqueline provided clearly does throw up some problems with it being a Red Kite, but I (and my views are based totally on personal field experience) rarely, if ever, get such good views and have never been close enough or in suitable lighting conditions to see the bill colour. At our annual autumn raptor watchpoint at Cabranosa, Cabo de São Vicente, Milvus migrans occurs in very large numbers (sometimes thousands, and only "bettered" by Griffon Vultures, with Booted Eagles coming a close third). Much of the time these birds are high and/or at a distance of 500+ metres and in extremely harsh late morning sunlight when there is very little plumage detail; the M. migrans do indeed look "black" under these conditions and the tail profile is normally the safest I.D. feature.

Still, we "live and learn" and I have pigeon-holed this in my grey matter with the intention of looking more closely when the opportunity presents itself.

Regards,

Colin

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Colin,
I have no experience with aegyptius, and I don't even know what the frequency of such rufous birds is within that subspecies. A number of possibilities present themselves in relation to Jacqueline's comments:

-such rufous birds are, in actual fact, quite rare, even in aegyptius

-Jacqueline has either not lived in Egypt for too long, or lives somewhere where aegyptius is rare, and has mostly seen nominate migrans on passage

-perhaps this was the first really close Black Kite that Jacqueline has happened to see in the area

All or none of the above may be true, my apologies if I have suggested otherwise, but the 'mystery birds' are certainly Black Kites rather than Red, and appear to match aegyptius better than the nominate due to bill colour etc. I do also seem to recall Forsman cautioning about the presence of occasional Black Kites on passage in Israel that were very rufous (seemingly migrans, but mistakenly termed lineatus in the past, and the cause of many erroneous claims of Red Kite in the region, which is now a very rare species in the Middle East)?
Regards,
Harry

P.S. You should get a chance to check Black Kites again before I do, given the relative status of the species in Portugal and Ireland...

[macrourus]

The cautioning was after a note from me in Birding World ... but the note was in fact dealing with identification of rufous and birghetr plumaged Black kite and hybrids with Red Kite... bird from israel and Middle list were reported as lineatus-type or lineatus-like just to report an example as those BK could appear like a lineatus and how they are called since long time linatus by local birders or other birders...but surely NOT my opinion that in fact was triying to explain why they was odd and not really like a lineatus (but also odd with migrans... Only, reporting lineatus-type and discussing them I as trying to be polite not to write THESE ARE SIMPLY NOT AND ALL YOU WRONG.... is not my style usually, I always try to be polite first ;-)

However, to explain in article delicate and slight things in English its hard for an Italian :-(

Ciao

Andrea Corso
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[Jacqueline Burrell]

Hi Colin,
I have no experience with aegyptius, and I don't even know what the frequency of such rufous birds is within that subspecies. A number of possibilities present themselves in relation to Jacqueline's comments:

-such rufous birds are, in actual fact, quite rare, even in aegyptius

-Jacqueline has either not lived in Egypt for too long, or lives somewhere where aegyptius is rare, and has mostly seen nominate migrans on passage

-perhaps this was the first really close Black Kite that Jacqueline has happened to see in the area

All or none of the above may be true, my apologies if I have suggested otherwise, but the 'mystery birds' are certainly Black Kites rather than Red, and appear to match aegyptius better than the nominate due to bill colour etc. I do also seem to recall Forsman cautioning about the presence of occasional Black Kites on passage in Israel that were very rufous (seemingly migrans, but mistakenly termed lineatus in the past, and the cause of many erroneous claims of Red Kite in the region, which is now a very rare species in the Middle East)?
Regards,
Harry

P.S. You should get a chance to check Black Kites again before I do, given the relative status of the species in Portugal and Ireland...

Harry

I have in fact been in Egypt for over ten years. I am based in Cairo which is one of the cities that have a long history of parks and green spaces and where m. m. aegyptius are a daily sight as they are as far south as Abu Simbel or as far north as El Arish on the Med.

I have travelled extensively in all the inhabited areas of the country which represents four percent of the land mass, have been on numerous desert safaris, have visited all the oases and driven the majority of 2,900 kilometres of coastline along the Mediterranean Sea, the Gulf of Suez, the Gulf of Aqaba and the Red Sea. I have covered approxiamately 1,200 kilometres of the River Nile which traverses 1,600 kilometres of the country and have spent time on Lake Nasser.

I also spent ten years living in the United Arab Emirates, Oman, and Lebanon and visit all the Gulf states (except KSA) as well as Yemen, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon on a regular basis.

You mention Israel, which is a country I cannot visit as I wuld be banned from all Middle Easter countries except, Egypt and Jordan because of their peace agreements.

During the last twenty years I have seen thousands of Black Kites but NEVER one with such rich rufous plumage.

Regards

Jacqueline

[Colin Key]

However, to explain in article delicate and slight things in English its hard for an Italian :-(

Ciao

Andrea Corso

You do VERY well Andrea. But, do you not think that Jacqueline's last post is both interesting and significant (and much in line with my own observations)?

Colin

[Harry Hussey]

Hi all,
Well, it is interesting to hear from Jacqueline that such rufous birds would seem to be very unusual, to say the least, within the range of aegyptius and also in the Middle East, but it is also the case that the birds depicted in the pics don't look right for Red Kite. These birds have a shallow tail fork, six obviously fingered primaries, a much less obvious pale patch on the inner primaries than in Red, a bill that is completely yellow (black on the tip of the upper mandible in Red) etc, and these features also apply to the very rufous bird.
On doing a Google search for Yellow-billed Kite, I came across the following photo, taken in Tanzania: http://www.birdsasart.com/yellow-billed%20Kite.jpg . It would appear that at least some aegyptius, perhaps more commonly in other parts of Africa than Egypt, can be very rufous below.
I would personally expect a hybrid Red x Black Kite to show more clear-cut pro-Red features, though I concede that the appearance of these is somewhat of an unknown quantity to me, due to the apparent absence of pics online. Those rufous Black Kites that pass through Israel are also a bit of a mystery, though they are currently believed to represent a rufous variant of the nominate race, at least until such time as an unknown taxon of rufous birds is discovered somewhere in Asia. I wonder where these end up for the winter...they are only passage birds in Israel. That said, they do seem to show typically dark bill tips, unlike the two 'mystery' birds here.
Regards,
Harry