Tringa ID in Italy

[admin]

Technical glitch - admin is an idiot and screwed up and we lost the thread that was just started - sorry.

Here's the summary:

macrourus posted asking for input on what looked like a Western Willet photographed in Italy. Link to photos here (http://ebnabruzzomolise.blogspot.com/2008/02/02022008-riserva-naturale-di-punta.html)

Forktail fixed the link

then

Cin-Ty responded:

"hi there. The photos aren't all that great, but it does look like a willet to me. Structurally, looks like a Western Willet, but again better photos would help. Is this a first year bird? wow. CT"

Link to Cin-Ty's ID notes on separating the subspecies (http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2340)

again, sorry :cry:
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[Jrhough1]

Intriguing bird and the id. of Western Willet could well be true.
Better photos and a description may help further the discussion.

I attached one of the shots and severly lightened it with curves in PS to bring out some detail which does support the id.

Julian

[Jrhough1]

oops! meant to attach a second shot for comparison of a juv. Western Willet from Connecticut in October 2007..

Julian

[AndyB]

well done Julian - got much further with photoshop than I did with the photos.

[macrourus]

I got yesterday night late the photos and I was in hurry to have help in order to consider to may flight these 1.200 km from Sicily up there....

So I did have not the time to study carefully the bad photos and to consider to lighting the photos and to check all details...

Your first imput help me in considering that I was not too sleepy (as being out in the field for some studies since 48 h without sleep) ...

Now I look at the photos with a fresher mind after a good sleep (even if dreaming to go there and twithc this gorgeous record)...

I can't think to any tringa having such legs, bill and plumage combination

Any Tring would show pale nothecs on mantle or at least tertials and wing coverts and surely not such bill...

The observer is a very good birder so he said was a Tringa and have seen the bird in flight just when too far and totally against light still holding the telephoto lens and said that the wing pattern was reminisent of a Bclack-tailed Godwit...

Hower, when this morning I was thinking to a Godwit, a Limosa rather than a Tringa the possibility of the bird being a very abraded female Bar -tailed Godwit Limosa lapponica startde to grow as a warm in my mind...

Pro BRGodwit is the streaked throat instead of beinn clean white and as a demarked white patch in Willet, streaked looking breast and barred looking flanks more for Bar-T God... rather than 1st Y Willet ... short looking legs and too narrow looking bill (albeit it being always open and therrefore hard to judge)

Was is not convincing yet me is that the bill does not look seems at all to have the very typical bright pink base or more than half of lapponica, a too short primary pojection (but who knows if this bird is moulting some why), the fact that the observer is a great birder etc. etc.

So, we need now better photos and field description of the flyght pattern so distincitve at distance of any Wi?llet.

Only then I'll take the airplain to there :-)

Thanks to all for supporting
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[macrourus]

Just to have some other species to discuss about and have your opinions...not that I think IS a Bar Tailed Godwit .. but that is the ONLY OTHEr option I could think to study on ...
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[JanJ]

My first reaction was the thin-based bill and somewhat structure, not leggy enough and as Andrea I was into maybe Limosa lapponica for some of the same reasons as he.
This moulting juvenile has a rather similar bill to the subject bird:

http://www.pbase.com/image/50396178

Others:

http://www.pbase.com/dancinec/willets&page=all

JanJ

[Brian S]

Andrea

I would be booking the flights if I were you. Like Cin-Ty, based on these pics and the images aren't great, I can't see why this isn't a Willet.

One of the pics on JanJ's second link to Willets is of a dowitcher, but which species?

Brian S

[Josh Jones]

Just to have some other species to discuss about and have your opinions...not that I think IS a Bar Tailed Godwit .. but that is the ONLY OTHEr option I could think to study on ...

Yes but even then, it doesn't really look like a Bar-tailed Godwit from the photos avaliable!

From what we can see, you should be indeed booking your flights!

[macrourus]

I was in fact totalloy in favoru of Willet, but being the first who dared in Italy to identify the bird and as being such an odd incredibly record I wanted first your support and confort to be 100% sure of what was my opinion....

So I flyght there

Thanks so much
great MEGA for Italy

Ciao

Andrea Corso
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[Josh Jones]

Indeed it is - good luck Andrea..

[macrourus]

Other character that supported my oidentification rpo Willet and eliminate any Bard-tailed Godwit :

1) white eye -ring quite obvisou and well complete - not like so in lapponica, some birds having a narrow and not as demarked and complete eye-ring but never like so

2) supercilium just in front of the eye, more as apale forehead, whiel more complete, also mared and well voisible behind the ey in lapponica

3) Legas that are indeed led grey or cerulean grey and not blakc as in lapponica

4) shape of lores feathering being more elongated, almost as long in upper mandible as in lower, being much shorted and higher, more square cutted in lapponica, more as a Limnodormus, giving different bill base appearance and shape...

5) different body shape/jiiz

6) much less uniform and less greish plumage in lappponica, and usually darker central shaft on feathers.

That's it. Thanks to all...

Eliminatde now any possible option and any speculation.

Ciao

Andrea
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[JanJ]

Obviously not a Limosa for several reasons, also mentioned here.
Am i the only one noting the whitish line on the edge of the folded wing - secondaries appearing, as usually in Willet, or could it be a photographic effect?

http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=330&d=1202090160

In Julian´s:

http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=331&d=1202090180

http://www.pbase.com/dancinec/image/57059769

http://www.americanbirding.org/birding/v38n3p40.pdf

JanJ

[macrourus]

Not you're right I forgot to mention it but is obviously there and a good character of it being a Willet as is absolutely sure and great :-)

In January- febraury so we got great records in Italy such as 2 Blyth's Pipits found by me (1st ad 2nd Italian records), 1 Black-browed Albatros, 1 wintering Hume's Warbler, 1 Greater Sand Plover, 3 Red-breasted geese, 1 Lesser White fronted Goose, and now this Willet !!

Good start of 2008

Ciao

AC
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[DaveN]

the face pattern and length of supercilium appear to rule out bar tailed godwit - and fit willet better.


D

[appleton.dave]

Well, I hope you're right, but I'm not so sure. It's difficult to tell when it's open, but the bill looks much too narrow to my eyes.

I'm not quite sure why, when the observer reported a wing-pattern reminiscent of Black-tailed Godwit, the godwit we're discussing is Bar-tailed. Anyway, I fear we may have been fooled by the effects of photoshopping here.

Lightening photos in Photoshop can be really helpful, but equally it can carry some real dangers. One of these is colour aberration. Examining the original, darker, photos I can't see any reason to think that the bluey-grey tones on the lightened photo are real. I think the upperparts are more brown and less grey than the lightened photo makes them appear. Gauging leg colour accurately is also difficult but I don't see anything to suggest they are as pale as Willet's - my impression is that they're pretty dark. Bill colour is even harder to call, but no sign of the paler base of Willet (perhaps I'm asking too much to be able to detect that, and presumably they can be darkened by mud as feeding Black-tailed Godwit's bills often are).

Suppose it's a Black-tailed Godwit, then consider Andrea's six points above:

1) Complete pale eye-ring (actually not complete at the front). Black-tailed Godwit's eye-ring can appear complete at the rear, although often it is partially bisected.

2) Supercilium details consistent with Black-tailed Godwit.

3) Legs - as stated above, I don't think they're really led grey or cerulean grey - see how the same cerulean grey tones affect the thighs, waves, upperparts, neck - this is a result of the photoshopping only. If it was a Willet I think the legs would probably appear paler in the original photos, especially the one with its back to us which is less silhouetted.

4) Shape of lores feathering - not quite sure if I've got what you're describing here or not, but it seems consistent with Black-tailed Godwit so far as I can tell.

5) Body shape/jizz. Different from Bar-tailed Godwit I agree, but I'm not sure it's inconsistent with Black-tailed. Note that this is more accurately gauged from the original photos as the lightening enhances the backlight affecting the edges of the bird (this will make the bill and legs appear thinner than they really are, but I still think they're thin for Willet). The rear end looks a bit attenuated for Willet to me, more like Black-tailed Godwit.

6) Uniform upperparts etc. - exactly as in Black-tailed Godwit.

Also, I'm not sure that Willet's wing pattern is all that much like Black-tailed Godwit's is it? The underwing in particular never recalled Black-tailed Godwit when I was watching them in the States.

My experience of (western) Willets is very limited but I've not seen them feeding in open water like this - they were always on the shore and out of the water (but there are plenty of photos of them in water, standing not feeding, so not sure if that means anything).

Perhaps I'm being over-cautious (again) and I do hope I'm proven wrong. We could do with a few more Willets over here. But without better description and/or photos (or even just different photos, like with the bill closed and out of the water) I'm not sure that the case for such a great rarity has been made convincingly yet.

Cheers,
Dave

[Brian S]

Dave

You strike a good note of caution, but nearly all of your points could be counter-argued. I will pick just two key elements in your argument.

1. Is the bill of Black-tailed Godwit not deep at the base? Perhaps islandica are narrower than limosa, but still is Willet broader than BtG? I'm not so sure.

2. You mention that BtG have an attenuated rear end, which I would contend is wrong. A quick study of images would suggest that Willet might have a slightly longer primary projection, creating an effect the opposite of what you say.

I would ask a couple more questions. I just can't see that BtG would have legs as short as like, can you? What do you make of the markings along the flanks onto the ventral region?

Images below from Photo Gallery

Brian S

[Bonsaibirder]

Hi Brian,

I never quite understand what "attenuated" means in the context of birds. It literally means made thinner. So if a bird has an attenuated rear end does that mean it is thinner or longer or shorter at the rear end than a bird which is less attenuated?

Cheers,

2. You mention that BtG have an attenuated rear end, which I would contend is wrong. A quick study of images would suggest that Willet might have a slightly longer primary projection, creating an effect the opposite of what you say.

[macrourus]

DAVE,

THANKS FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION...

when thereb is a odd record I always use strong caution, may be somethimes even too much as a maniacal way...

as you may see, I first was 100% sure of Willet, then asked soon for help and to clearn my mind...then with all opinions in favour of Willet I thought that then I was not that mad in beliving it was a Willet.

I do considered Black-tailed as first option of course for the very uniform and clean upperparts, the white line along the wing, and for the bill shape (not being upcurved not even a bit as form photos and filed description by the observer).... and the face pattern. However, suddenly eliminated that possibility as the observer reported he first thought to a Greenshank at distance and never to a Black-tailed Godwit and the bird was smaller and shorter legged. So I just mentioned Bar-tailed to have something to discuss on to eliminate any possibilities, even the slightest one and due to shorter leg and feeding along the sea shore (never ever seen here in Italy Black-tailed along a sea shore feeding )...
However, you points are important and interesting but also in Blac-t the bill would be mostly pink based, so even much paler than in the two toned greysh as in Willet, where against light I would imagine that is easier that two tones of grey could appear almost same (but in better res photos you would see actually the distal part its indeed darker ) but not black vs. bright pink or flesh ...

Also, legs do not appear to me at all solidly black... its like Greater Curlew vs. Slender-billed.... in the former they look always paler while the latter always solidly black !!!!!!!!!

Talking about the eye ring, sorry for my word, I meant complete to indicate that on both lower and upper part of the ey there is a ring , I meant incomplete when on just one part either lower or upper eye... when is not closed I would say open eye ring or interrupted (sorry its merely a traslate from our ornithological terminology in Italy) :-(

Anyhow, the observer is going there tomorrow and check with other birders...

we will see, but again I've been talking with him and he said he nerver thought at all to any Limosa but when first seen far he thought was an odd Greenshank before realising was something he never seen before and asked my help....

So, I think, even if keeping the strongest caution, that this should indeed be a Willet
even if of course my experinec on this species is not that as you or USA birders ....

Cheers and thanks

Andrea C
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[Brian S]

Steve

I use it as meaning that the rear end is 'pulled out' or thinner at the rear. It is as if you have a ball of clay and 'pull' it out to a point on one side; the thinner and finer the point, the more attenuated it is.

Now is that any clearer? And am I correct in this instance?

Peter Kennerley and I have looked at the photos in photoshop today, and are both pretty sure it is a Willet.

Brian S

[JanJ]

When I suggested the white secondarie line on the folded wing I didn´t consider Black-tailed Godwit - which is similar to a certain degree - for the reasons that I did not think it looked like one because of the bill base colour and thickness. Also the slightly differently shaped feathering at base of lower mandible, generally (if intact) longer extension on Willet than in BtG and Limosa in general and to thin looking for a BtG.
Check on subject bird:

http://bp1.blogger.com/_loR9F8sz5W8/R6ecNJt8swI/AAAAAAAAAJo/kVX9dceND80/s1600/_DSC1597.jpg

and BtG:

http://www.pbase.com/emidiomachado/image/72864877

http://www.pbase.com/arieouwerkerk/image/60283182

As Dave suggested, the lightning could make the bill and legs look thinner.

Compare bill base thickness of a BtG compared with Western Willet:

http://www.pbase.com/emidiomachado/milherango&page=all

http://www.pbase.com/joe_e_fischer/western_willet

http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/willet

Upperwing:

http://www.pbase.com/image/76217280

http://www.pbase.com/dancinec/image/57250602

Wonder if the slightly uptilted upper mandible on the subject bird is due only to flexibility of the bill?

JanJ

[Jrhough1]

Let's take a step back a minute and re-examine the unfortunately bad photos (sorry, no disrespect intended). It's certainly not a godwit on shape, leg -length, leg color, head pattern etc.

Assuming the lightened photos are not bad enough to mess with our heads, and we assume it's not a Greenshank, the bird fits well with Western Willet and several features of this bird can be seen in the lightened photo to eliminate Eastern Willet.

Western Willets are lankier than Eastern, with long, tapered bills, long legs, pale, noticeably white loral area attached to a nice whitish eye-ring. The upperparts are greyer with (in juvs) fine internal mottling which, at a distance gives a rather uniformly grey look. When I've seen them here in the East, they can be picked out at long range by being like an oversize Greater Legs.
If you translate that to the old world, the fact that the bird reminded the observers of a Greenshank is rather bang-on!

The legs, with "knobbly" knees, combined with the head pattern and noticeable primary projection (shorter and less obvious in Eastern) are all typical Western Willet features.

Since Eastern Willets don't moult until they arrive in their wintering areas, and Willet with moult signs in the wings and scapulars in September-October is a Western. At this time Easterns still sport full juv. plumage and as in BSmalls shot have a contrast between the darker centered juv. scaps and the plainer wing coverts - a contrast lacking in juv. Westerns at that time of year.
My previous post of the photo of a Western Willet is a typical one.
Obviously at this time of year moult is less of a clue than in fall.

A clear description of the startling wing pattern would be a nice nail in the coffin!

[macrourus]

Thanks so much to everybody who used time to comment and help so much...very appreciate and would help a lote the Italian RC to discuss this great record...

I hope in good news in 2 days and then I'll go there ...

anybody who want to come and twitch as already Richard Bonser wrote me is most welcome in case the bird is still there. We all go saturday (and sunday at Ventotene island out of Rome coast for the interestinh HUme's Warbler there)...

A very informative and interesting case indeed....

Cheers and thanks

Andrea Corso
Sicily
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[appleton.dave]

As I typed my last post I nearly s....ped it half way through as I couldn’t account for the shortness of the tibia if this was a Black-tailed Godwit, and it didn't seem right that the neck never seemed long. Then I searched through some photos and found some which didn’t seem far different, so I carried on.

I’ve just tried drawing some diagrams to help explain what I mean by attenuated rear end – the angle between the line of the back and the line of the belly seems narrower to me on Black-tailed Godwit than Willet, but the first few photos where I’ve tried drawing the lines all have exactly the same angle, so maybe I’m seeing something that isn’t there. The attenuated appearance is enhanced when there is a concave line of the back (dipping in at the tertials) compared to when this line is straight. Both species can appear straight or concave dependent on posture, but I think Black-tailed Godwit appears concave more often which makes it look more attenuated to my eyes.

Feeding Black-tailed Godwits frequently have their entire bills covered in mud completely covering the pink.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/93372558@N00/21445423/

Gauging bill thickness is hard when it’s open and perhaps I’m wrong about this. But this doesn’t look wrong for Black-tailed Godwit to me: compare with this one:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/93372558@N00/21445424/in/photostream/

Interestingly, I’ve checked about 80 photos of Willet and only one has its bill open whereas loads of Black-tailed Godwits have their bill open. The one Willet photo (a western bird not online) shows both mandibles evenly broad and more so (especially away from the base) than the Italian bird.

This isn’t obviously a Black-tailed Godwit – no sign of the long neck, tibia seem too short, etc. But neither is it obviously not a Black-tailed Godwit – posture can account for a lot in just 4 photos.

I am not saying that this bird is not a Willet. If it was photographed in North America I don’t know that I’d give it a second glance. But as it isn’t, I think a bit more caution is necessary, and I can’t help wondering whether the unnaturally blue-grey tones of the lightened photo give this a stronger Willet-feel than are real and that this has influenced the identification.

The comparison with Greenshank helps its case if this was an experienced observer and I hope it is re-found tomorrow. Unfortunately I won’t find out until the week-end as I’m away but look forward to seeing how this pans out when I get back.

[Chris Benesh]

Interestingly, I’ve checked about 80 photos of Willet and only one has its bill open whereas loads of Black-tailed Godwits have their bill open. The one Willet photo (a western bird not online) shows both mandibles evenly broad and more so (especially away from the base) than the Italian bird.

Hi Dave,

You mention that the bill of the mystery bird looks perhaps too thin for a Willet. I'm not sure if you came across this image in your searches, but it shows a Western Willet with its bill open. To my eyes, it is a pretty good match for the thickness and structure of the mystery bird. Imagine this comparison bird was in basic plumage (instead of molting into formative plumage) and it is a pretty good match overall - proportions and even habitat.

Shot of a Western Willet with bill open:
http://www.pbase.com/image/50396178

Image of the Italian bird:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_loR9F8sz5W8/R6ecN5t8sxI/AAAAAAAAAJw/zyEd1oaeL_s/s1600-h/_DSC1598.jpg

FWIW,

Chris

[Cin-Ty]

hi there...
I'm still on the willet camp, i.e., this bird just doesn't have the structure of a godwit (at least to me)...

Based on my experience watching Western and Eastern Willets here in Texas, where both occur in good numbers and overlap enough in occurrence (spring, summer and early fall), my guess is that this bird is a western willet. I also agree with Julian that Westerns and Easterns have very different structures, enough to pick these guys out from a distance.

Anyway, I go with Western on this bird because of the following features
1. There is kind of a "depression" in the profile of the bird's back. This is what I see on Westerns a lot. On Easterns, the back profile down to the tail tip tends to be straighter.
2. Going with willet... this bird has proportionately long legs compared to my exprience with Eastern willet. The legs are also thinner (on Eastern they would be thicker).
3. Although the bill is open, it still doesn't look that broad-based to me.

I can't comment too much on the plumage because I don't have that much experience with Easterns in winter plumage (since they molt after they leave the states). But all the willets wintering here in Texas (and we're pretty far south compared to europe) appear to be Westerns, so perhaps Western might even be the most likely subspecies for a winter vagrant in europe. Anyway, just speculating here.

that's my 2 cents worth.

[Jrhough1]

I think Dave may be, in all due respect, over-engineering the attenuation aspect of the bird.

As too did think the bill looked a little "thin" but I put it down to the fact that the overall true shape of the bill, given the posture and the fact that some of it is buried, may not be representative of what I'm seeing in the shots.

Also, note in the Italian bird there are sp.... markings in the ventral region, something not shown on juv. BTGWs.

I attached a shot, not one of my better ones, but it shows a bird in similar poses as the Italian bird and was taken in FLorida in February 06.

Best,

Julian

[Bonsaibirder]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for that - I understand exactly what you mean now. It also seems that people (on this forum at least) are all using it the same way !

Cheers,

Steve

I use it as meaning that the rear end is 'pulled out' or thinner at the rear. It is as if you have a ball of clay and 'pull' it out to a point on one side; the thinner and finer the point, the more attenuated it is.

Now is that any clearer? And am I correct in this instance?

Brian S

[macrourus]

Dave,

I can understand what you mean with bill covered by mud and as I checked this out too after your imput, I can see that even the legs does not often looks black indeed but grey or greish ... so I understand really your point... However yet I think the structure is wrong for Limosa ... and yes the observer is a very good one (finding often rare birds in Italy, in this case just he was not brave enough to wrote on EBN Italian LIst what he think it has seen and wanted my support to be sure)...

Kavin Karlsson and other mega USA birders all agrred that the bird is a Western Willet...

However, I really hope its find back so I can go there and see with my eyes, always the best thing to do ;-)

Ciao and thanks to all you

Andrea Corso
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[Sean Cole]

Has anyone been to look for this bird since and was it present?

Sean

[macrourus]

It has been search3d today and yesterday for something like 100km of coast but not relocated...

unfortunately the shore has been full pof people, dogs, motobikes and all sort of annoing stuff and so it could be anywhere...
Adriatic coast is 1000km of coast all suitable for a Willet.... :-( :-(

So I did not took the airplain :-(

Too bad

We are preparing a paper for Birding World also thanks to all your help thank you

Ciao

Andrea Corso
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