I need and ID, gull

[Joe stockwell]

Took this photo of a solitary gull on a secluded lake nr andover, first thaught to be a ringbilled gull i fired a few shots but as i get home and check the books imnot so sure can somebody help?
also attatched is a herring gull taken at rooksbury mill the spots on tail are much larger it aso has a smaller red spot on the beak

[Nathan Kipling]

I don't think it's a ring-billed but the just as good news is what it does look like to me is a Caspian. I'd be just as pleased with it, it's just been made a species by the BOURC.

:lovegulls:

[Joe stockwell]

oh brilliant i wasnt sure on what it was because there are so many variations in guls

[Colin Key]

I have looked at this photo several times and still would not stick my neck out on naming this bird. It is not Ring-billed (did you get any idea of size in relation to Herring Gull, Joe?) and I would not be confident in calling Caspian. It is the bill which looks odd to me - too long and too slim, otherwise I might have gone for Herring Gull.

I wonder if Jan has taken a look at this yet?

Colin

[Joe stockwell]

it was definitely smaller than a herring gull also when it was slightly agitated birds it didnt take right up into the air it jsut flew up and then back down again

[Joe stockwell]

im going back to see if its still there i need better photos!

[marklhawkes]

In the first photo it looks like a graellsi Lesser Black-backed Gull, but the second suggests it's a Herring Gull! I can't see anything to suggest anything other than Herring Gull I'm afraid. Certainly not a Ring-billed, and no suggestion of being a Caspian either

EDIT: Just read the caption again. I see the second is a Herring Gull! The first bird is a Lesser BB Gull.

[Josh Jones]

I don't think the first bird is dark enough on the mantle for Lesser Black-backed, not even graellsii (it isn't on my monitor anyway). I flirted with the idea of michahellis at first but it could easily be just a Herring Gull. I presume it was taken recently..

[birdertrev]

One thing it isn't is Lesser Black backed Gull !, The bill fits nicely for Caspian, long and parallel edged , with little or no Gonydeal angle, The mantle colouration seems good for this species also, it does appear to have a dark eye but its difficult to say from this pic. I would have expected Caspian to show some signs of a shawl during the Winter though so not entirely happy to say Caspian just yet.

Will have a good look at it again later.

Trev

[marklhawkes]

It looks dark enough on my monitor Josh. I don't think it is a michahellis - the tone of the mantle colour is wrong, as it the head shape and bill, plus michahellis would be clean headed by this time (note the head streaking on the hind neck of this bird). In fact, I can't see anything wrong with it being at Lesser BB Gull (probably a 3rd-winter, given the remains on brown in the wing coverts, and dark band on the bill).

[marklhawkes]

One thing it isn't is Lesser Black backed Gull !, The bill fits nicely for Caspian, long and parallel edged , with little or no Gonydeal angle, The mantle colouration seems good for this species also, it does appear to have a dark eye but its difficult to say from this pic. I would have expected Caspian to show some signs of a shawl during the Winter though so not entirely happy to say Caspian just yet.

Will have a good look at it again later.

Trev

Trust me - this is not a Caspian Gull! :beer:

[Joe stockwell]

pic doesnt really do it jsutice ill se what i can doo i had to resize it too small i will try and make it a little larger this time

[JanJ]

Hi Joe & all.

From the 1st image I don´t see Caspian or Yellow-legged Gull at all. The brownish markings on the coverts and dark marking on the bill (we don´t see the open wing) in an otherwise rather adult like plumage suggest a near adult.

Although some male Caspians (males are bigger with stouter bills than females) can have quite stout bills:

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/57165698

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/72243351

but they usually have thinner and more parallel like bills compared to the subject gull in which the bill looks broader at the base. Struckture is more like Herring or LBBG and not l the "Caspian look" with a smallish head - long sloping forehead and slender jizz, which not always is that apparant depending on stance and mood.

These Caspians are quite similar in plumage pattern as the subject gull and note the bill size, the small dark eye and overall jizz (of course standing on ground is anoter matter)

Herring Gull or LBBG I can´t say from this image, looks rather pale for a graellsii but looks long-winged (?)

Check these Caspians:

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/cach5&page=all

http://www.pbase.com/slisch/caspian_gull

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=subcatkj&cat=1&subcat=2

JanJ

[birdertrev]

Are we looking at the same bird here ? !

If thats a Lesser Black back I will sell all my gear and take up Knitting.

Trev

[Josh Jones]

I don't think it is a michahellis

Indeed not, hence I moved on rather quickly as I went through the possibilities of what it could be! I wouldn't expect a 3w michahellis to look like this really, so not sure why I even put it down earlier.

I agree though, if that mantle was darker I would have few problems in calling this graellsii. As it stands, I can't see why it isn't just a Herring Gull (if you saw it on this monitor you would understand why - the photo isn't overexposed and the mantle is well within range of HG and really pushing it for graellsii).

As an aside, Trev, if it is a Caspian Gull I will happily take up knitting. There really is very little here to even suggest cachinnans.

[marklhawkes]

The mantle colour isn't that pale. So on structure, especially the long looking wings, and the long necked appearance, I'm still happy with it being a LBBG - I see paler birds like this in the roost at Grafham occasionally.

Enjoy your new hobby Trev ;)

[Harry Hussey]

I'm finding it difficult to decide conclusively between a pale end graellsii (certainly, as I was told by a very experienced birder some years ago, some SECOND winter graellsii at least can have paler grey mantle and scapular feathers than is normal for adults, and I wonder if the same also holds true for 3rd-w?) and an odd Herring from the pic, not to mention 'off the wall' options like Herring x LBB (though unlikely), but I certainly agree that there isn't really any pro-Caspian impression.

[Brian S]

JanJ's links are always welcome, and these are helpful for comparison, but sometimes gut-feeling and loads of experience can help. I am not sure I would write off michahellis, based on this image I don't think you can - the mantle tone seems pretty good. However, I can't see it being a LBbG.

The bill is massive and I have seen both michahellis and Herring show such a bill head structure. It would be helpful to be able to see the primary pattern (or have it described), as this would differentiate Herring from Yellow-legged.

Brian S

[Joe stockwell]

not being rude but please less of the jargon i can understand some things but others are to confusing
here are some more pics hope these are more helpfull as im back on my pc i can upload them
joe

[birdertrev]

Josh, Mark,

I didn't say it was Caspian, Caspian was mentioned earlier by Nathan, I was merely pointing out democratically that some features look ok for Caspian , but as I said I wouldn't say Caspian yet as not convinced, ( I only viewed the pic for about a minute ). I really can't see it being LBBG though , having watched gulls for the past 15 years or so, I have never seen one with such a pale mantle , even the palest of Graellsii wouldn't get this pale.

Unless my monitor is showing me different to what you are seeing.

Trev

[Colin Key]

I do think that the perceived mantle colour (remember that we are assessing a shade of grey in the black to white tonal range) is a bit of a "red herring" here. Different lighting conditions can create huge variations in tone and it is very easy to change LBB to Herring in PS just by using the "lighten shadows" tool.

For me it is the bill shape which is wrong for either LBB or Herring.

Colin

[Joe stockwell]

I do think that the perceived mantle colour (remember that we are assessing a shade of grey in the black to white tonal range) is a bit of a "red herring" here. Different lighting conditions can create huge variations in tone and it is very easy to change LBB to Herring in PS just by using the "lighten shadows" tool.

For me it is the bill shape which is wrong for either LBB or Herring.

Colin

thank you colin,
but what you see here is exactly what i could see through binoculars the bird was deffinitly a not L B B and witht these poor record shots it isnt easy to tell but i can help with descriptions
it had a marked hood (like herring gull) but bill coloring and tail patterns told me otherwise it had wierd manerisms too every ten seconds or so it would up end for a split secon and then write itself
when it flew off it was very quick to gain hight but came down to an ajacent pond (imposible to shoot) but was not there today!
all i care is finding out what it is

[marklhawkes]

For me it is the bill shape which is wrong for either LBB or Herring.

Colin

So what does that leave then?

P.S - Does everybody still think it is too pale for LBBG in the photo where it is facing away?:lovegulls:

[Colin Key]

Attached is a shot of an adult (maybe sub-adult, 4th cy) Lesser Black-backed Gull (graellsii) which I believe is the same age as Joe's bird. I could not find a shot with a similar pose (so mantle colour is not relevant here), but whilst the eye (pale iris and no red orbital ring plus a dark "shadow" in front of the eye) might be similar to the bird in Joe's photo, the bill is most definitely not (proportions, colouring and gonys). So, unless we accept that Joe's bird might have a bill malformation (which is not at all unusual - I have seen many examples of this due to either accidental damage or genetic defect), we need (IMHO) to look beyond LB-bG.

Colin


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J3313a.jpg

[Colin Key]

And here is a fully adult Lesser Black-backed Gull (graellsii) with a very pale mantle and a deformed lower mandible.

Colin


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J4125.jpg

[Joe stockwell]

i think that covers it
ah what fun that was, ill se what i can find next time

[Josh Jones]

Mark - hats off to you mate - thats a graellsii Lesser Black-backed Gull in the photos, no doubt - just shows how deceptive mantle colour can be at some angles.

Incidentally the in new version of the original image, the mantle appears darker on my computer - if those images had been available from the start I would have gone straight for LBB, as I'm sure everyone else would!

[marklhawkes]

Colin, sorry, but bill structure, colour and the angle of the gonys varies vastly in gulls, dependant on age, race, sex, time of year etc etc. The bill of the bird in question, although not typical for a LBBG, isn't outside the range of the species. It isn't always possible to compare one bird to another and declare that they relate to different species.

Also, the 2nd photo you have posted seems to show an adult Yellow-legged Gull (not a LBBG). Check out the primary pattern, and the colour (and tone) of the mantle.

[Brian S]

I agree with Mark about the second photo by Colin, but I still think that the original bird might be a Yellow-legged Gull.

At my local roost, where there are up to 15 YLGs at the moment, there is an optical effect caused by low light levels in the late afternoon, whereby the tone of the mantle on these gulls seems to get darker. Before you go down the route of stating this is LBbG, why is the mantle tone looking dark not merely an effect of the obvious poor light in which the photos were taken? I might even suspect that graellsii LBbG might look darker than this in poor light.

There is something about the posture of this bird, the long neck, flat back, etc., that I see very often in YLGs (Caspian can look like this also). When you have watched YLGs as much as I have, from atlantis to eastern birds in Cyprus and Israel, you will note that the bill of this bird is within the range, as is the mantle tone, head shape.

We may have to simply beg to differ on this one...

Brian S

[marklhawkes]

Brian,

As someone who watches a lot of gulls, and has written much about them, I respect your comments greatly, but I can't see this as a Yellow-legged Gull. I suppose I could ask why some optical/photographic effect hasn't actually made the mantle look paler, but in reality (assuming it is an accurate record of the mantle tone colour) I don't see anything wrong with the colour for a Lesser BB Gull.

I watch the gull roost at Grafham Water as often as I can, and have much first hand experience of the "darker mantle" effect created by lower light levels, but this is usually with Herring Gulls looking darker, and looking like potential YLGs. In-fact, in certain lights (especially towards the end of a gull roost) I am often inclined to "leave" some potential adult-type YLGs unidentified (especially at this time of the winter). Over the ten-years I have been doing the GW roost I have seen 100's (probably over a 1000) YLGs at this site alone, not to mention those from other UK sites, Canaries, Spain and Mallorca etc, and I have seen a good number of Caspians in the roost too (probably around 40-50 birds now - I would need to check my notes!)

For me, the bird in question was a LBBG on gut instinct right from the beginning (not very scientific, but often this instinct is the right one). I can't see a single feature to suggest it is anything but this species, the structure, including long wings and high rear-end appearance are not typical of Herring (but are more so for YLG). The reasons I don't think it is a YLG are because there are remains of extensive streaking on the hindneck, which isn't a feature of adult/near-adult YLG as this time of winter, and because the manlte seems too dark (being more towards the charcoal end of the scale, then the blue tones more typical of YLG - this is a feature which is easier to appreciate in the field than to describe!). Also, the head shape doesn't seems square enough.

I don't doubt the bill shape is within the range of YLG, I just don't believe this is the case on this occassion....

All the best
Mark

[Joe stockwell]

im going to say on this occasion that i cannot identify it i have seen ylg and caspian gull before but also seen lbb too and it to me doesnt really look enough like any of them (to me) for a definate id so the previous comment of aggree to dissagree may have to come into play
joe

[Colin Key]

Mark, my photo (#2) in my recent post is, I am 99% certain, a LB-bG; it was a curious bird which was why I posted it (VERY pale mantle, and the primary tips are not actually visible in that shot because of the curvature of the right wing). Somewhere, lurking on an external HD, are many other shots (it was always recognisable because it was ringed and also had about a third of the lower mandible missing).

Have had a long drive today to see a Forster's Tern at Villa Real near the Spanish border -- and, no, I didn't!! :cry:

I am all "gulled out" at the moment.

Colin :beer:

[marklhawkes]

Sorry Colin, but that 2nd photo of yours is definatley a YLG (there is no question about it). Enough of the primary pattern can be seen to suggests this, combined with the head shape, jizz and of course, the blue coloured mantle. If it was ringed, it might be an idea to check and see where (and as what) it was originally ringed.

[Joe stockwell]

even im going to say thats a ylg

[Colin Key]

I don't care!!! :SLEEP:

Colin

[JanJ]

Just goes to show how difficult it is to identify gulls by structure and head shape both in the field and in images not to mention mantle tone if we stick to images! To be honest I would prefer not to on - especially on lone individuals and I suppose you all have experienced this. I also see Colins second gull as YLG and for the same reasons as Mark. and not an especially blunt-tipped bill, easy for the unware to miss - which I did not looking to careful!
Of course we can´t exclude YLG, as I indicated, going on gut and experience as I did but not even that is reliable because shape and bill size vary between males and females, stance, mood and so on. As all would know YLG (and any other LWHG gull for that matter), has far from always a square looking head shape with a stout blunt-tipped bill where the red gonys spot reaches the upper mandible in adult breeding at all times.
There was something about the first image of the subject gull around the head, not big and full-necked enough, and there you see, I did it again, contradicting my own statement. Nevetheless I miss something about just that for YLG.

http://www.ornitho.ch/index.php?m_id=54&mid=28727

Good variation in bill shape/size and head shape:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/micha/index.html

JanJ

[JanJ]

Sorry Colin, but that 2nd photo of yours is definatley a YLG (there is no question about it). Enough of the primary pattern can be seen to suggests this, combined with the head shape, jizz and of course, the blue coloured mantle. If it was ringed, it might be an idea to check and see where (and as what) it was originally ringed.

Just to show something more subjective. Here I´m seeing and therefore under the impression of the lack of bluish hue on upperparts on YLG.s

JanJ

[Joe stockwell]

looking at comparison pictures does give some idea and some of the nearly adult ylg's are very simalar to mine showing the same head and beak colouration but the head isnt the right shape, although i have seen some examples of birds that do have the same head shape.

[Colin Key]

Time to move on lads!! I have seen soooo many gulls in the past two days that I am starting to call them "seagulls".

No disrespect to Joe, but those photos are not good enough to "pull apart", and I am still not convinced that the bill shape and mantle colour are going to clinch that bird.

But, the discussion is very useful to all and I must say that I have spent a lot of time today looking more closely at birds which I would otherwise not scrutinize.

Colin

P.S. Had a better day today; still no Forster's Tern but I did get two Audouin's, ca. 150 Slender-billed, Green-winged Teal (carolinensis), two Great-spotted Cuckoos and a Wryneck. As I write this I have Stone Curlew feeding very noisily on something in my garden. :twitcy:

[marklhawkes]

Joe,

Out of interest, what was the response from having posted this photo on the surfbirds stop-press gallery?

[Joe stockwell]

1 yes to a caspian, 1 ylg and a herring gull

[marklhawkes]

Proof that peoples opinions (and knowledge) varies greatly!

Personally, I think they are all wrong. I was watching YLG this weekend, and failed to find a single sub-adult bird with any traces of streaking on the hind-neck. Also, there is a LBBG resident on my patch currently which is paired to a YLG (they have been present since last spring, and remained throughout the summer and winter) and although this bird is an adult, the mantle colour and tone, plus head streaking is very similar to the bird you photographed.

Of interest, I note that your photo is slightly over-exposed (note the blurring on the tail and tertials), and think this may have made the mantle appear slightly paler in the photo.

[Josh Jones]

Mark - yes, the first photo is overexposed, hence my own opinion that it couldn't be LBB! When I saw the second batch of shots, it was quite clear.

In relation to what people have got back to Joe saying (and generally), it is slightly worrying (in a UK context) that so many people are still misidentifying Caspian Gulls which clearly aren't, despite it now being a full species and there being far more literature, ID articles, and photos around now than there was a few years ago. It would probably be a wise thing to study the more common species alot more thoroughly before taking on the scarcer birds.

[Colin Key]

Of interest, I note that your photo is slightly over-exposed (note the blurring on the tail and tertials), and think this may have made the mantle appear slightly paler in the photo.

Mark, can you explain what blurring has to do with over-exposure? The first photo looks O.K. exposure-wise to me, the poor image quality and blurring is due to camera shake and quality of optics.

On the other hand, the second batch of photos are most certainly under-exposed which, to me, accounts for the much darker shade of the mantle. I refer you to one of my previous posts where I said that the apparent mantle colour (especially in photos of this quality) might not be a dependable ID criterion.

[marklhawkes]

It's not really the manlte colour which suggests to me the bird is a LBBG. As everyone agrees, the bird isn't a Herring Gull, this Leavs YLG and LBBG. As the moult (especially the head and hind neck streaking) are wrong for a YLG at this time of year, this leaves LBBG. Also, the jizz, bill and structure seem fine for LBBG

On over exposed photos, the white feathers often seem blurred (out of focus), whether this is the case here, I'm not sure, but as nobody has yet suggested why this is anything but a LBBG, I guess it doesn't matter either way.

[Colin Key]

Are we looking at the same bird here ? !

If thats a Lesser Black back I will sell all my gear and take up Knitting.

Trev

How's the knitting going Trev? I am doing embroidery myself!!

Colin :laugh::ohdear::beer:

[Brian S]

All

I don't want to dig up an old thread, but today I had at Southwold a YLG near adult, with comparable brown marking in the wing covs to the gull here. I watched it for a while and got some poor video of it. The thing of note was the streaking in the hindneck that Mark believes a YLG would not have.....

Bria S

[Joe stockwell]

Brian!......

[marklhawkes]

Here is a photo of the mixed (resident) pair of YLG & LBBG that have been at Grafham Water for almost a year now. Note how pale the LBBG is (in the foreground), and how it isn't much darker than the YLG. Yes, the photo is over-exposed, but it only means both birds are equally over-exposed, and having seen these birds on almost every visit, I can assure all that this is not a photographic trick. Also, note the remains of head streaking on the LBBG and clean headed YLG.

Pan down a few photos
http://www.indybirder.com/grafhamphotos2008.html