Slender-billed curlews in Italy? Don't panic - old ones

[Sean Cole]

Hi all,

I took the attached photo in Siena's Museum of Natural History (Tuscany) last week.

The case was very high so I couldn't read the label, and hence also the poor angle on the photo.

Are these two Slender-billed curlews? What do people think?

If they're not, they may cast doubt on the bird in the UK in 1998....

As extra information, they were certainly smaller than the surrounding curlews in the case, but not significantly so. They do show the teardrop flank spots and possibly thinner bills, and the bills were certainly shorter than the nearby Curlews'.

I know Andrea looks at this forum, so maybe he can comment on the presence of SBC skins in Siena museum? You might be interested there is an unlabelled Eyebrowed thrush in a case at the entrance, too - whether shot in Italy originally I cannot tell, and my Italian is too poor to have asked the lady in the museum!

Thanks in advance

Sean

[macrourus]

Hi Sean,

incidently I've been at the Museum checking several skins for ID in December...
Yes indeed this are doubtless Numenius tenuirostris and there are actually 4 including one of the extremely few fresh juvenile preserved in any Museum.... (should be the far back behind to the left)...

However, the legs became much paler then usually they are due to bleaching and age...

The black legs are one of the MOST if not THE most important and easy to see character for identification of difficult tenuirostris vs. odd small arquata ssp. (and having studie this issue now since last 15 years I can tell there are quite a few around, hoefully oon the final article on this matter).

Regarding recent records in Europe (last 15 years) I do not wnat to open a file and a discussion as I risk to be killed :-) :-(

The Eye. browed Thrush has been recently killed in Tuscany ....

There is also a Pale Rock Martin taken in January in Tuscany and misidentified as Crag Martin... it should be the 1st for Europe but I do not think is gonna be accepted by the IRC as being such old record for which the truth of is collecting its hard to be sure about...

Cheers

Andrea Corso
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[Sean Cole]

Thanks Andrea - so I wasn't going crazy!

What is the Skua in the window of the Museum? It looks like South Polar, but again no label so it may have been shot in the southern Ocean somewhere.

Perhaps you could Email me about the story behind the SBC's in Italy? I promise I won't get angry!

Sean

[Marcus]

The black legs are one of the MOST if not THE most important and easy to see character for identification of difficult tenuirostris vs. odd small arquata ssp. (and having studie this issue now since last 15 years I can tell there are quite a few around, hoefully oon the final article on this matter).


From "British Birds" vol 95 no 6 p295 with reference to the Druridge Bay bird "There was a consensus that the legs were dark grey; one observer reported that they were darker than those of Eurasian Curlew, but others stated that this was explicity not the case" The article goes on to say that "the issue of a genuine difference in leg colour between the species is unproven. What is described is, therefore, consistent with SBC"

[macrourus]

that legs are black in SBC is not only proven, but also easely so (just look at ALL available sure photos and all good preserved skins). Only wonder is that if, as for many shorebirds species, a fresh juvenile - 1st winter bird could have paler legs, being dark grey or blackish, but surely not led grey or blue grey... In some skins there are very few 1st y bird that I found with paler legs, but not sure after 100 years if these are genuinely paler than adult or just decoloured by age...
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[Sean Cole]

It does seem rather odd though that the Druruidge bird was not only extremely small for a standard arquata, but it also had clear teardrop-shaped spots on the flanks and breast, a feature previously claimed as diagnostic of SBC. The Druridge bird was purported to be a first summer, so it is not, as Andrea says, beyond the realms of possibility that the legs could be paler.

In my opinion if a bird shows several features of a species and looks different enough to be identified as one, it probably is.

It seems more fanciful to try and "fit" anomalous features to make the identification conform (in this case the size and plumage to make this a Curlew) rather than to accept the obvious conclusion that it is what it looks like.

SBC seems to invoke very strong feelings from people; in the case of this particular bird this is no doubt down to the way it was handled at the time and the blame apportioned to the news services which "prevented" people from going to see the bird (though of course people should go and make up their own mind & not wait to be told). Had it been seen by all and sundry I feel there would have been less of a debate.

The final point I would make is that almost nobody has seen more than 1-3 adult SBC's in the flesh, and no-one has apparently seen an immature. Museum specimens, while useful, are of course more limited in value when it comes to features like bare part colour (as Andrea has pointed out).

Right, I'm off to check the photos of the Druridge bird to give me a chance to edit this post....

Sean

[forktail]

It does seem rather odd though that the Druruidge bird was not only extremely small for a standard arquata, but it also had clear teardrop-shaped spots on the flanks and breast, a feature previously claimed as diagnostic of SBC. The Druridge bird was purported to be a first summer, so it is not, as Andrea says, beyond the realms of possibility that the legs could be paler.

In my opinion if a bird shows several features of a species and looks different enough to be identified as one, it probably is.

It seems more fanciful to try and "fit" anomalous features to make the identification conform (in this case the size and plumage to make this a Curlew) rather than to accept the obvious conclusion that it is what it looks like.

SBC seems to invoke very strong feelings form people; in the case of this particular bird this is no doubt down to the way it was handled at the time and the blame apportioned to the news services which "prevented" people from going to see the bird (tohugh of course people should go and make up their own mind not wait to be told). Had it been seen by all and sundry I feel there would have been less of a debate.

The final point I would make is that almost nobody has seen more than 1-3 adult SBC's in the flesh, and no-one has apparently seen an immature. Museum specimens, while useful, are of course more limited in value when it comes to features like bare part colour (as Andrea has pointed out).

Right, I'm off to check the photos of the Druridge bird to give me a chance to edit this post....

Sean

Sean,

you might have the makings of a productive new thread here on the Druridge Bay bird. I know the coals have been raked over many times but there may be a fresh insight to be gained and I feel the discussion on this forum would be of a high quality. The temporal distance of the record (1997) might induce more clarity now (or perhaps the dust has settled so lets kick it back up again!)
Many people still harbour doubts of the veracity of the bird as a S-b C, :nah:
especially those who saw the Merja Zerga birds. I remain to be fully convinced but would like to be, rather than not.:err:

your mate
F.

[Sean Cole]

Hi mate (!)

I would welcome an open debate from sensible people on the Druridge bird (small correction - it was 1998), and because of the amount of doubters and the quality of those observers, I of course have my own doubts - though based on lack of experience with the species rather than what I saw at the time.

Do we think this is a good place to have it discussed? In my experience of this bird many valued opinions were invisible because there seemed to be a lot of reputational caution (if there is such a phrase).

Well, maybe it needs someone erudite and intelligent to start that thread to get people in the right frame of mind, eh Forktail?

There is an ongoing BBRC review of the Druridge bird, so maybe the decision will be made for us?

Sean

[Brian S]

All

This link shows the leg colour of the Druridge bird as grey (?), a touch darker than Eurasian in one, but on that where it is picking at the bank they look pale (blue-) grey(?), I am not sure.

http://www.surfbirds.com/mb/Features/slender-billed-curlew.html

Brian S

[Colin Key]

All

This link shows the leg colour of the Druridge bird as grey (?), a touch darker than Eurasian in one, but on that where it is picking at the bank they look pale (blue-) grey(?), I am not sure.

http://www.surfbirds.com/mb/Features/slender-billed-curlew.html

Brian S

Leg colour is very subjective even with high quality photographs due to lighting and exposure settings. With images of this quality the actual (apparent) colour is totally meaningless.

I have seen (and photographed), for example, Little and Temmink's Stints under varying lighting conditions and believe me, anyone who advocates using leg colour to distinguish between these two species is on a "hiding to nothing".

Colin :nah:

[Sean Cole]

mmmm...To me the bird in the link given by Brian above, despite the comments made on the link to the contrary, doesn't look like the bird I saw!

There are no teardrop marks on the breast or flanks, rather merging streaks.

At the time of the sighting I understood part of the confusion was caused by the two bird theory - that when Colin Bradshaw (who took the photos on that link) went to confirm the sighting, he saw the "other" bird, the small curlew. He correctly pronounced it as standard curlew, thus confusing the issue. If only Colin were in a position to confirm this publicly!

Now if that story is true, and both birds had bleached coverts, then this bird is not the SBC.

Andrea has studied SBC for a forthcoming i.d. article, and has seen the video recently - would you like to comment Andrea on whether this is the same bird as in the video? I wouldn't ask you to publicly give an opinion on the identity of the bird if you felt that was inappropriate.

Regards

Sean

[Brian S]

Sean

The possibility that this image was not the SBC has been discussed before and Colin has proven that it is definitely 'the bird'.

Brian S

[Alex Lees]

While we are on controversial curlews, can anyone shed any light on the single AOU region record, apparently taken at Crescent Beach, Ontario in autumn, "about 1925".

Obviously tenuirostris was much commoner at the time, but this is still a staggering record....

[Alex Lees]

Some internet dredging shows that the AOU SBC has been considered unsafe before, see this extract culled from this review (http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Auk/v085n03/p0515-p0528.pdf) in Auk:

"It also is unfortunate that the Slender-billed Curlew (no North American record) was included, on the basis of an unlabeled mounted bird. The specimen was allegedly shot at Crescent Beach on the Ontario shore of Lake Ontario one fall day about 1925 by Dr. I. L. Terry (since deceased), but subsequent investigation has apparently shown the record "unsatisfactory" (Palmer, in Shorebirds of North America, 1967, p. 189)."

also cf: this post (http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0406c&L=birdwg01&P=1268)on ID frontiers regarding provenance of important skins.

Time for a review?

Alex

[Marcus]

Interesting photo from the 21st on this website: http://www.kentos.org.uk/Seasalter/April08.htm

Coming up to the 10th anniversary of the Druridge bird.