Sylvia challenge

[Yoav]

This 2cy male Sylvia was observed near Eilat in southern Israel last week. It shows some contradictory characters for both mystacea and melanocephala.

In the attached link there are several images:

http://www.israbirding.com/israelbirdsforum/forum_entry.php?id=515

This bird stirred quite a discussion in Israeli forums, with no final solution yet. The birders who saw the bird in the field claimed that the images don't do justice to the bird. In the field they identified it as a Menetries's. However, images are images, and the camera captures what lies in front of the lens.

I am very interested in your ideas.

Yoav Perlman, Israel.

[Colin Key]

I am very familiar with S. melanocephala but have never seen S. mystacea. Irrespecitve of plumage (which is rather difficult to judge from these shots) I would proffer that the relatively pale orbital ring and also the pale grey crown point towards this being S. mystacea. Certainly, if I saw this bird at this time of the year I would question whether it was "Sardinian".

Colin

[Brian S]

Yoav

Well.......

I have tried to factor into my own experience all of the features discussed by Shirihai et al: the primary extension and number of tips visible (5 in mel and 6 in myst); the bill colour and strength (slimmer and greyer in mel and very slightly thicker and more pinkish in colour in myst ); the prominence (contrastingly darker in myst) and tone fo the outer edge of the alula; the colour of the tertial fringes (often whiter in mel); the strength of colour on the underparts and its contrast with the white throat (darker and more contrasting in mel).

However, I seem to go round in circles based on the photgraphs posted and understand the arguments amongst the observers. It feels strange in this day and age, when we like to be able to ID every bird we see, but sometimes it has to be accepted that there are limitations to our knowledge and learn from it. In this instance it may well be that the observers on the ground are in a much better position to assess the 'feel' of the bird.

Basically, I don't know!

Brian S

[Andreas Bruun Kristensen]

New pictures of the bird can be found here:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=20525

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=20526

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=20527

Perhaps these can cast further light on the identification.

I saw the bird, but have very limited experience with these species. I will leave it to Sylvia experts to ID this warbler. I guess it is a male, because of the black forehead, and with these relatively good pictures, I guess biirders familiar with melanocephala and mystacea can ID this bird.

Best regards,
Andreas Bruun Kristensen
Denmark

[Colin Key]

This is an adult male S. melanocephala taken 28th February this year - full breeding plumage. I do not think, given the fact that the photos of the questionable bird are badly exposed, that this is the same species.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J4785-1.jpg


Colin

[Colin Key]

This 2cy male Sylvia was observed near Eilat in southern Israel last week. It shows some contradictory characters for both mystacea and melanocephala.


Yoav Perlman, Israel.


Yoav,

I have not delved back too far into your links, but what is the evidence that this is a 2nd cy bird, and what are the "contradictory factors" you refer to?

Colin

[billington]

Yoav

I think that one of the most important things to do with this bird is to establish age and sex in order to help with the ID. I am guessing that the 2CY ageing is based on iris colour along with the crown? Then on to the sex of the bird - I think that this bird is probably a first winter/spring male. The crown to me seems black underneath with some grey/brown tips that, when they wear a little will show the black underneath (perhaps this is just an impression from the photos however). If 2CY male is correct then I see no other option than mystacea with the confusion being that perhaps we are expecting a little more definition on the crown (a little more spring than winter). I would like to point out a couple of other features that I think point to mystacea: The general brown hues on the wings and nape (these should be grey on melanocephala); the tertials are not right for melanocephala (should be dark centred with a neat grey border); very difficult to judge from the photos but if this were melanocephala, the bulky structure/jizz would tend to suggest ssp. momus which should be clear-cut at this time of year. Last point: is this perhaps a ssp. rubescens? Might explain the underpart coloration.

I might be wrong though!

Rich

[Brian S]

Andreas's links are very helpful and rule out a 2cy melanocephala - it looks a different beast altogether. I would feel happy that this is a mystacea, as labeled on Netfugl. The bill now seems pinkish based, the colour on the underparts soft, pale and pink-toned - very nice.

Brian S

[forktail]

very unscientific I know but it has all the feel of a mystacea, with the cocky-tailed jizz and the less than well-defined tertial edgings, chunky-looking bill and pinky suffused underparts. A long time since I saw one but they do have a certain jizz to them.

F.

[Jurij Hanžel]

I hope this doesn't bias the discussion on this forum in any way (even though it probably will!):
Discussion on Israbirding forums (http://www.israbirding.com/israelbirdsforum/forum_entry.php?id=515)