Unidentified gull

[Christian Brinkman]

A gull was photographed last Tuesday when it flew past Cap-Gris-Nez (France) and it was believed to be a Mediterranean gull. Pictures are now spread and some think it to be a Franklins (or even Laughing-) gull.

http://forum.waarneming.nl/forum/uploads/post-69-1206044590.jpg

The overall apearance is very Franklins like (imho) but when you check the features of the bird they point towards Med gull. So honestly, I don't really know what it is, I tend to go with the first impression that it is a Franklins.

Your opinion please, in Holland the leading opinion is that it's a Med gull..

[Martin Scott]

On what points/features is it being proposed as a Med Gull?

I'd be in the Franklins camp with this one

Has the query about the id only came out since the photos appearred? Did the origional observers query the id at the time?

Martin

[Christian Brinkman]

I'll translate the original message:

''Dear,
Tuesday we saw a gull flying past Cap Gris-nez in a mixed group of Black-headed-, Common and Med gulls.
For us it was with no doubt a 1st winter Med gull. Since then we send this picture to hundreds of people on mailing lists and 78% of them vote for Franklins, even some ''big names in the bussiness''. I'm curious for your opinions.''

The gull gets id'd as a Med gull on:
-The light back
-The inner primaries (p1-p4) should be black/greyish with a white edge in 1st winter Franklins.
-The secondary trailing edge isn't prominent and should go all the way to the primaries (stops at p4) as a broad band in Franklins
-Lack of white on the forhead
-They expect a colder/darker tone of colour in the wing with Franklins
(all features picked from the waarneming.nl forum (http://forum.waarneming.nl/forum/index.php?showtopic=44197&st=0&#entry328995) )

All this is translated directly from Dutch to English so there could be some mistakes..

[Pipixcan]

Hi, in addition to the other points already mentioned Franklins would be undergoing a complete moult at this time of year and there should be obvious signs of moult in the primaries and secondaries.Also the tail band appears too extensive for Franklins, some 1st summers appear almost white tailed at this time of year.Extensive dark head markings are not that uncommon on 1stw/s Med Gulls


Cheers, P.

[jamesg]

Although I'm not fully in the Franklin's camp, I can't agree with the "dark Med Gull" theory.

Regarding moult stage - here's a Franklin's taken at this time of year with a near identical state of moult. The similarities to the bird in question are striking...
http://www.birdguides.com/pictures/default.asp?v=1&f=91847&r=0&st=0&q=

The other points raised against it being a Franklin's also seem a bit subjctive to me - the mantle tone looks fine on my screen, the exact nature of the dark secondary bar is difficult to see (and variable in reality), etc..

There are a host of features that do not fit Mediterranean Gull, even a "dark" one. The diffuse darkness of the underwing, lacking clean black primary tips, the lack of contrast in the upperwing coverts, intense dark patterning on the breast and flanks etc.. Most telling, for me, is the shape of the dark hood, extending far down the nape and coming to a point, rather than finishing in a straight line high over the head, as on Med Gulls.

All that said, I 'm not at all sure it is a Franklin's - the observers said it was the same size and shape as adjacent Med Gulls (per ID-Frontiers), the bill is long and the darkness of the underparts and underwings doesn't quite fit with pipixcan.

As a long shot, perhaps it's related to that Laughing Gull that has been touring European gull colonies in recent years...

[Colin Key]

I saw these shots posted elsewhere this morning and could not really make this into a Med. I am very familiar with this species and have never seen a 1st winter bird (I assume that that is what it is?) with such a dark head. It also doesn't look bulky enough for a Med. I think on bill length we can rule out Laughing Gull. I have only seen Franklin's in adult late summer plumage, but that is the species I would put my money on.

Colin

[Colin Key]

All that said, I 'm not at all sure it is a Franklin's - the observers said it was the same size and shape as adjacent Med Gulls (per ID-Frontiers), the bill is long and the darkness of the underparts and underwings doesn't quite fit with pipixcan.


James,

I do not see the bill as being long at all, and it does not look "heavy" enough for Med.

Colin

[Pipixcan]

Although I'm not fully in the Franklin's camp, I can't agree with the "dark Med Gull" theory.

Regarding moult stage - here's a Franklin's taken at this time of year with a near identical state of moult. The similarities to the bird in question are striking...
http://www.birdguides.com/pictures/default.asp?v=1&f=91847&r=0&st=0&q=

The other points raised against it being a Franklin's also seem a bit subjctive to me - the mantle tone looks fine on my screen, the exact nature of the dark secondary bar is difficult to see (and variable in reality), etc..

There are a host of features that do not fit Mediterranean Gull, even a "dark" one. The diffuse darkness of the underwing, lacking clean black primary tips, the lack of contrast in the upperwing coverts, intense dark patterning on the breast and flanks etc.. Most telling, for me, is the shape of the dark hood, extending far down the nape and coming to a point, rather than finishing in a straight line high over the head, as on Med Gulls.

All that said, I 'm not at all sure it is a Franklin's - the observers said it was the same size and shape as adjacent Med Gulls (per ID-Frontiers), the bill is long and the darkness of the underparts and underwings doesn't quite fit with pipixcan.

As a long shot, perhaps it's related to that Laughing Gull that has been touring European gull colonies in recent years...

Hi James, I agree that there are similarities but the Irish bird HAS started its primary moult..the other gull hasn`t


Cheers,P

[jamesg]

I did say "near identical"!!:cool:

Allowing for the blurriness of the images, I'd say the wing state of the two birds could be very similar. But as I said, I don't think it's a Franklin's. Interesting bird though.

[Brian S]

Interesting shots and discussion, here's my tupennyworth, as if you care....

Structurally, looks chunky and bill too strong for Franklin's? Mantle looks pale, but on some images of 1w Franklin's they can look quite pale. Odd breast band, but here's the crucial bit. I can clearly see small marks on the rump and spots on uppertail coverts that in my experience 1w Franklin's never show, but are obvious on 1w Med.

Compare imagesof Franklin's here with the Meds below from the surfbirds galleries, http://www.pbase.com/dadas115/franklins_gull

What do you think?

Brian S

[JanJ]

Strange gull indeed and interesting!
I don´t think it´s a Franklin´s - a Laughing or a normal Med Gull.
Considering Franklin´s moult scedule in spring a bird at this time of year (if not an aberrant one) would look quite different, as it would if taken as a 1cy (1st cycle).

http://10000birds.com/franklins-gull-devon-uk.htm
One way to put Franklin´s of the list is to compare with a 1cy (1st cycle) Franklin´s.
Check the inner primaries on this Franklin´s and note the lack of dark subterminal spots - which is quite obvious on the subject gull:

http://www.pbase.com/cristianjensen/image/92112441

Otherwise the upperwing is quite similar except that the subject gull has more black in the wing tip and wider white tipped secondaries and inner primaries.
The shape of the hood in the subject gull (the forehead looks pale) is not all wrong for a Franklin´s moulting into summer hood, but the eyelids are not convincing and the bill is on the large side for Franklin´s.

http://www.arthurgrosset.com/sabirds/photos/larpip24966.jpg

http://www.fotosaves.com.ar/SouthAmerica/Peru/IncaTern2_Lima_Dic06.jpg

Then what is it then?
I can´t say from these images

JanJ