High Definition camcorders

[Brian S]

All

I am still prevaricating over whether to go down the HD route with my camcording. Though I have read Andy's helpful note on the Canon, I still have a few questions, which I hope someone might be able to answer.

1. What is the best format? I have always used DV, but there is no doubt to record straight onto a disc or SD card is attractive.

2. I have heard that there is a lot of image break up on these two (more than on DV), especially in low lighting conditions. Is this still the case?

3. What is HD like for digiscoping? This harks back to my last question, as by digiscoping you are letting less light through to the camera.

4. Is it best to get a high grade lens adaptor rather than digiscoping?

5. I like the look of the Sony HDR-UX19E. Has anyone used it? What is it like?

Brian S

[AndyB]

Hi Brian, I did a lot of google research before making the plunge but there didn't seem to be any birders or nature videographers shooting in HD and sharing their work and info on the web. I had to stay away from recording to disc because it's very difficult to work with on a Mac. Warning to all Mac users, stay away from disc-based camcorders esp Sony (unless you have some tips to share).

It seemed the Canon HV20 was the most widely used at the time based on youtube videos I found. It was tape based and also had the 1.7 teleconverter (plus the 10x optical zoom). Your Sony here looks very good with 15x optical zoom with Zeiss lens so you're getting almost as much zoom as the Canon without having to attach a teleconverter. I've read alot of comments on video forums saying go for disc over tape too just for ease of use but I feel I have heard negative reports on reliability of disc based camcorders but can't find any to hand.

go to youtube.com and type in Sony HDR and you'll see some sample videos and reviews of this family or recorders although nothing on the UX.

Anybody else shooting HD and anyone tried digiscoping? Do you need an HD compatible lens in order to see the benefits of digiscoping?

HD seems to be coming down in price so maybe wait and see is the approach to get the best camera at the right price... Paul Hopkins' recent videos on Surfbirds Video (http://www.surfbirds.com/video2) look like they must be shot in HD.

[Red-eyed Video]

Hi Brian,

I can't answer all of your questions but I do have experience using HDV.

Call me old fashioned but I still prefer the old tried and tested medium of tape which has been around for a long, long time. I too edit on a mac keeping all my original footage, copy the edited video back to tape, create DVDs for viewing & back-up the edited digital version to a 500GB hard drive. How's that for belt & braces?!?

My Sony HDR-FX7 has a 20x zoom lens which is about the same magnification as an 8x binocular, plus a Sony HG 1.7 converter & 1.5x digital extender which I find adequate although a little more reach wouldn't go amiss at times.

I haven't used it for digiscoping as it would be a little cumbersome to say the least but I can't see any problems with smaller models, the light gathering quality isn't bad so it's a question of versatility over magnification.

One thing is for sure with HDV, the quality is truly stunning.

[Martin Scott]

One problem I have found with tapes is that when you go from a cold to warmer environment - even from a seawatch back to the car - the tapes sometime stick inside the machine. Sometimes they free themselves, others they dont. At £150 a hit to rectify inc postage it aint cheap.

Maybe just living in a damp atmosphere up here is the problem!

The other week I was in a Sony shop. They let me play around with a couple of camcorders and I am now very confused in which way to go with my pics. Camcorder for record shots and short films, or DSLR. Modern camcorders are excellent - see some of Stevie Evans stuff.

The quality of HD was undeniable as was the light gathering of a camcorder on a dull Inverness evening. The staff in the shop were recommending sticking to mini tapes by the way.............

[Brian S]

All

Very helpful, thanks.

I have had a number of problems with miniDV, and have three cameras in front of me that are so unreliable as to be useless. Part of it is, as Martin says, the videos get stuck inside or keep on refusing to record/play - at which point I have to repeatedly take the DV out and put it back in ad nauseum, until I lose my patience and give it a slap and then it starts working again. (I've tried this approach with my wife Janet as well - only joking, as she is a black belt and I'm scared of her! :laugh:).

My 3CCD Pansonic NV-GS300 keeps on needing cleaning - almost every time I use it - is this a problem with HD as well? I like the quality of the images with this camera, but am lazy in that I want a simple method of storing images.

I have a large number of old miniDVs, and as a last question, can I play these through an HD camera, or will I have to keep an 'old' one to play them?

Brian S

[Red-eyed Video]

You would need to check that your chosen model has Switchable HDV/DV Format Recording which means it can record and play back miniDV tapes.

The tape loading problem killed off 2 of my camcorders, my XM2 developed a problem just out of warranty and the (insured) repair bill came to £1200!:eek:
It came back with a rattle and was changed for a brand new one after taking 3 months to repair through Jessops.

I've heard of DSLR photographers loosing all their photos on a corrupt memory card & hard drives occasionally die too. Recording on card or disc means a compressed version of the original recording, a bit like shooting RAW compared with 3mp resolution on a DSLR I suspect.

[ed keeble]

For what its worth, I'm quite encouraged by first results this weekend from a Sony HD SR12 attached to a Leica 77 body, using an Eagleeye 10X eyepiece.

The main plus so far (compared my previous efforts with a Sony DCR which got nicked a couple ofyears ago) is the resolution of the stills- 3680 x 2070 if grab taken whilst the video is filming, 2304 x1296 if grabbed off the video after it has been filmed.

[AndyB]

I've been in contact with Paul Hopkins recently and he tells me that he's not shooting HD but digi-scoping Currently using Canon XL2 with either standard 20x zoom or through adapter on a sigma 50-500mm lens which give great results if well mounted and the bird is not moving around too much like the OB Trogon or the BT Barbet. His videos are here (http://surfbirds.com/video2/uvideos.php?UID=108&type=public)

[paul hackett]

Hi Brian

Long time no speak!

my two cents worth on the subject -

HD or not HD?

I have used DV tape, and mini DVD in the past as you know, both were good quality when put onto DVD, Birdforum has some of my video blogs on their TV channel which i used both with and without a scope attached using a Sony mini DVD camcorder

I am looking to get a new Sony with flash memory for videoscoping - Sony HDR-CX6EK is the model i am looking into the moment

see this link

http://http://www.sony.co.uk/view/ShowProduct.action?product=HDR-CX6EK&site=odw_en_GB&imageType=Main&category=CAM+High+Definition+on+Memory+Stick

Do you have the 10X Eagleeye? the best thing ever brought out for video scoping IMHO, the eagleeye lens is still about, email eagleeye direct i think they still have some left?

As with standard eyepieces ( 20x) with huge combined magnification, a 10X eyepiece stops you turning into Billy No Mates, having to walk 3 fields back just trying to get the whole subject in the screen, all of us who video scope no this situation so well!

Also take a look at a Williams or Barlow optics 4337, essentially an astro eyepiece that requires a astro adapter from your scope manufacturer, zeiss and swaro do a astro adapter, not sure about Leica? it is essentially around 12 X eyepiece on large scopes. It has a 37mm thread on it so the camcorder can go straight on to your scope eyepiece should your sony lens diameter be 37mm or step down rings down to 30mm

Quality of video? many people seem to qoute what they have read and not what they have actually seen? having now seen a sony camcorder HD played back through a widescreen HD TV the quality is very very good IMHO, yes there are pros and cons about corrput data on all media, its your choice at the end of the day, what you have to ask yourself is - what is your footage going to end up on? Youtube or your personal computer, so it will be compressed down, or you are going to put it up on your brand new HDTV and look at it full size and no compression, or burn it onto a DVD? this reply is just to really ask yourself what you expect the quality to be like?

Hope my ramblings may point you in the direction you want to go?

Best

Paul

[Mike Cat]

HI...as a virgin video-ist ( is that a word ?) I need to get myself a cheap , reliable , reasonable quality camcorder for record shots ie for evidence rather than necessarily aesthetic purposes ....can anyone recommend the model I need please ? Tekkies welcome but don't get too technical as you'll certainly lose me .

Around 250-500 quids worth .

cheers MC

[Colin Key]

Mike,

On that budget you are really not going to get what you want.

On the other hand (or on another planet!) a Canon 5D MkII (with superb HD video mode) and an 800mm f/5.6 lens will only set you back about £13,000 (and both are as scarce as "hen's teeth" in the U.K, at the moment, such is the demand).

'Orrible world, innit?

Colin :eek:

[Mike Cat]

....what , not even second hand Colin ?...you never know ?

[Colin Key]

On a more sensible note Mike, we bought a "top-end" Sony camcorder about four years ago which cost about £1,300. At the time I was into digiscoping (using a Swarovski ATS80HD + Nikon Coolpix 4500) and discovered that one of the three adapters which came with the Swaro adapter kit allowed me to fit the Sony cam onto my 'scope. The combination of digital zoom on the cam and optical magnification of the 'scope produced some incredible images. I only ever set it up once and that was in the kitchen looking through an open window at plants and insects at the end of my garden.

Given that the cost of camcorders has plummeted, and there must be loads of second-hand stuff around, I am sure that you could find something which fits the bill.

I might even have another go with this set-up tomorrow and post some results. I do remember the one thing which put me off using it in the field was that it really needs a remote cable control for the cam since at high magnifications manually adjusting the camera controls produced a lot of "shake".

Colin

[rettuhs]

Hey Mikey, I think it will serve you better if you check the Camcorder Ratings (http://www.smartratings.com/photography/camcorders) of different brands. The expert reviews can help you get acquainted with certain products. Those who did came out well-informed thereby making their choice much easier.

Hope this helps.

[Mike Cat]

Thanks guys.....that link to ratings is especially useful....can either of you recommend some from just that list which would fit the bill ?...ie for bird purposes rather than just general use ...remember i know nothing so even one or two rec. would be useful...

cheers again
Mike

[Colin Key]

Mike,

Just re-read the posts here and am not sure whether you are intending to use the camcorder in combination with a 'scope or just the "bare" camera?

Colin

[Mike Cat]

...just the bare camera ....

[Colin Key]

...just the bare camera ....

In which case I think you will have big problems unless you find a set-up which will accept an additional "long" lens. But this is now "outside my territory" and people like Brian, Andy, etc, are much better qualified to advise you.

It might also be useful to state exactly what sort of shooting conditions you are anticipating (range, size of birds, etc.).

Colin