Swallow Pics

[Christopher Cachia Zammit]

Hi there guys,

Could any one give me tips on how to take photos of Swallows in flight?

Thanks

CCZ

[Colin Key]

Hello Christopher,

A lot depends on the lens you are using and the capabilities (AF and frames per second) of your camera body. For most bird photography I use centre AF point only which takes a lot of practice keeping that single point on the subject. With my Canon 1D MkIII I also have the options of enabling "assist" AF points (either the two left and right of the centre point or the six which surround the centre point) which is useful if the centre point goes "off target". With a high contrast subject against a clear sky background it can also be worth trying matrix focusing with all the AF points enabled - this is rather more effective on a 1D series camera since it has 45 AF points. It is also necessary to shoot in AI Servo rather than One Shot mode and, of course, aim to get maximum shutter speed by using a wide aperture and high ISO. The most important thing of all is that you need loads of LUCK!!! I am attaching three shots of Barn Swallow, House Martin and Common Swift - for each one of these there were dozens of shots which were either OOF or did not even have the bird in the frame.

Colin

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J1798a.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J0322a.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J1976a.jpg


:wideeyed:

[Christopher Cachia Zammit]

Thanks for the tips

Regards

CCZ

[David_Ellsworth]

Colin, those are good swallow and swift shots!
[Edit: I just realized, that Common Swift has food in its crop to deliver to young, doesn't it?]

I've tried to video swallows and swifts, and it's very hard. My camcorder's AF loves to go berserk the moment the frame becomes pure sky — the focus rockets wildly the moment I let a bird stray too far off-center. Sometimes the AF even hunts if I have a distant flying bird perfectly centered. And forget about focusing on a flying bird against any background with detail in it — the camcorder insists on focusing on the background.

Nevertheless, I managed to get this:
http://www.pbase.com/qubit/image/92321532
My "Holy Grail" is to get really detailed video of a swift or swallow catching an insect. Perhaps even showing detail on the insect, rather than a moving dot as in this animation.
Has anyone else tried this?

[Colin Key]

David,

Thanks for the compliments, and yes the Swift probably did have a full crop for feeding young since that shot was taken in July.

Although the lighting looks good in those shots it wasn't - very early morning just after dawn with harsh oblique light and my shutter speeds were just at 1/000s or a slightly more. These were all taken using the Canon 100-400mm zoom which is not particularly sharp at 400mm and also does not have the quickest or most precise AF. I now have a 400 f/5.6 prime (can no longer hand-hold the 500 f/4) which is a very sharp lens and was trying it out on Alpine Swifts last Saturday but the darned things would just not come close enough. This is 90% of the battle, being in just the right place and being able to predict where the birds are flying.

Here are a couple more from the same shoot. The first was shot at 10 fps for a burst of 12 frames and only two had the bird in shot, such a small bird coming straight towards you at about 60 mph is quite a challenge for AI Servo tracking.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J1869a.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J1866a.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J1965a.jpg


Colin

[David_Ellsworth]

Colin, wow, those are excellent... the one of the swift coming straight towards the camera is amazing and I don't think I've seen such a perfect shot of a swift before. The third one, with the backlighting, is very pretty.

Any chance you'd post 1:1 pixel crops of some of those photos?

[Colin Key]

Thanks David. By 1:1 pixel crops do you mean 100% crops? To do so I would have to go back to the original RAW files or derivative TIFFS, and Goodness knows where they are - I am the world's worst "digital house-keeper". I tend to put reduced JPEGS onto my Photobucket or PBase site for web publication and then forget about the originals. I will see if I can track them down.

Although I was quite pleased with these at the time, I think I could make a better job of post processing the images now. I only use Photoshop Elements (as opposed to CR3) but with the recent release of PSE 6 for Mac I am finding that if I go back to original RAW files (assuming I can find them!) I can do better. I was pretty much a novice at processing a year ago when these were taken but am gradually improving.

Cheers,

Colin :beer:

[David_Ellsworth]

Colin, yes, I mean 100% crops, and I'd still like to see them. Have you been able to find your RAW originals?

Yesterday afternoon there were a bunch of Cliff Swallows at White Point Nature Preserve, and despite having to fight my camcorder's autofocus I got this insect-swallowing sequence:

http://www.pbase.com/image/97865098.jpg
(Above is 67% crop - Original size here (http://www.pbase.com/image/97865104/original), not much more detail due to imperfect focus)

And here's a single frame videograb (100% crop from 1440x810 frame):
http://www.pbase.com/image/97865445.jpg

Another one, of a swallow scratching its head in flight:
http://www.pbase.com/image/97865604.jpg

[Bobolink44]

some really excellent photos here guys. Colin, got any equally good red-rump or little swifts? love the action sqs David.

[davegray]

David & Colin these are great and very inspirational. I've been trying to capture flying House Martins in our orchard and so far I have nothing I'd post anywhere public, just what seems to be out of focus black lumps. I'm off to see if I can get a bit closer now after reading Colin's post. 8-)

[Joe stockwell]

i have found the best way is find some waterhttp://surfbirds.com/albums/data/545/IMG_2053.JPG

joe

[Colin Key]

David, I have still not found the original RAW files (mainly due to lack of time) of the swift and swallow shots but I am about to do a "Spring Clean" and bought two Lacie 500GB external HDs at the weekend with a view to cataloguing and backing-up my bird photos. It might well be that the originals got trashed as an entire folder after I had selected the best of the bunch for processing.

Bobolink44, have never even seen a Little Swift although we do get a few "overshoots" in the Algarve from N Africa. I do have a mission this coming weekend to try and get some shots of White-rumped Swift. This is Portugal's rarest breeding bird (probably five pairs or less) but I do know where there are two pairs nesting in abandoned Red-rumped Swallow nests close to the Spanish border. I have Red-rumped Swallows nesting in a passageway between my house and the garage; they are very successful and have bred here for the third year this year - they are currently on their third brood of this year. I have never managed to get any "in flight" shots (they are much more difficult and unpredictable in their flight patterns than swifts or Barn Swallows), but here is one of "Mum" from last year:

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/IMG_1949a.jpg

Colin

[Colin Key]

One from today. This is very heavily cropped and was the only half-decent shot out of 130.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J6159.jpg

Colin

[Christopher Cachia Zammit]

Woooooooooooooooow GREAT PHOTOS....KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK :)

[Christopher Cachia Zammit]

This is best photo I have of a Swallow...

Enjoy

http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v258/113/123/1029728622/n1029728622_30101379_5848.jpg

[David_Ellsworth]

Joe, I love your photo of the Barn Swallow about to catch that floating insect. One suggestion — could you use Curves (or equivalent) to bring out some detail in the shadows?

Colin, that's a beautiful shot of the Red-rumped Swallow on the wire.

Christopher, what camera/lens are you using and what was your shutter speed for that Barn Swallow shot?

I got a new DSLR a few weeks ago! The AI-Servo focus is fabulous for photographing birds in flight (as long as there is a sky background). Here are some of my best shots from today:

http://www.pbase.com/image/99569389/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/image/99569313/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/image/99568979/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/image/99568978/original.jpg

[Colin Key]

Like #1 and #2 David, #3 looks a bit "weird" (looks rather ill and emaciated). I would be interested to know which DSLR you bought, which lens you used for these and what your basic settings were (shutter speed, aperture, ISO, etc). Also, were you shooting in RAW or JPEG and what sort of processing did you apply?

I also thought that Joe's shot of a Barn Swallow taking an "in flight" drink (or was it a meal, I notice that there is an insect on the water) was good, and advised him on how to make it even better; I sent him my Photoshopped version, but I was only working with the JPEG which he had posted:

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/BarnSwallow.jpg

I think that working on the original RAW could have done even better.

Colin

[David_Ellsworth]

Hi Colin,

My new camera is a Canon Rebel XSi, and the lens is the EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS. The other lenses I have so far are the EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS, and Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro. Also to tide me over until I get a Canon 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, I got a T-mount adapter to use my 500mm (focal length) telescope as a prime (focusing is a devil, and auto-metering doesn't work at all for some reason, but when properly focused it can achieve good sharpness).

I have been sticking to shooting 100% RAW (sometimes RAW+JPEG so that I can get a better on-camera zoomed preview; disappointingly the RAW preview is at half res). What's alarming is that this filled up my 16 GB SDHC card in one shooting session, which is not exactly comforting! I'll have to get some more cards before I go on any kind of vacation.

Colin, do you shoot in 100% RAW, or do you sometimes use JPEG? How many & what size cards do you use? Do you use the Canon 100-400mm lens? You're using a Canon 1D Mark III, right? Those 45 focus points are the main thing I'm envious of — how well do you find they work when photographing swifts & swallows?

For the swallows and swifts in flight, I shot at ISO 400, shutter speeds of about 1/2000 sec, and apertures of about f/8. (I found that slower shutter speeds usually resulted in significant motion blur even when my shot was in perfect focus; the f/8 aperture is only to compensate for imperfect focus, as I've found that my 55-250mm gets excellent sharpness even at f/5.6.) I used Manual mode, with AI Servo focus using all 9 focus points (but aiming to cover the flying bird with the central focus point).

All 4 photos posted above are imported with Adobe Camera Raw, processed with Noise Ninja, and then resized 2/3 (66.67%) before sharpening and cropping.

When you said #3 looks weird and emaciated, were you actually talking about #4? (#3 and #4 are different individuals.) If so I agree — but the weirdness is part of the reason I posted it; that pose (beak open, presumably right after having swallowed an insect) is one we don't see often! I imagine it might be emaciated because it has to work so hard feeding the babies. You can see in the shot that it has a stuffed crop — most of my shots of White-throated Swifts yesterday had stuffed crops (some even REALLY, REALLY stuffed). At times the swifts were flying by so close I could hear their wingbeats!

For Joe's picture, I was thinking more along the lines of something like this:
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/9955/img2053lightenedoa2.jpg
Given a bump in the shadows with Curves, and a saturation boost to make up for the resulting dullness. Just enough to bring out the detail, while preserving the mood. But I would like to see this done from the original.

[Colin Key]

Hi David,

Regarding my comment on shot #3, and your response about shot #4, there are only three photos!!

Your new Rebel XSi is, I believe, a good camera; I have the the 400D (XTi) as a backup and have used it with my 500 mm f/4 and got some very good shots. The limitation of course is with the AF, spot metering, etc. With my Mk III I have never used full "matrix" AF (i.e. all 45 AF points). I normally use centre point with the two "assist" points either side, or the surrounding six "assist" points. Sometimes, (and this includes some of the hirundine and swift shots) when I have high contrast against a clear sky I use the inner nine "ring of fire" AF points.

I always shoot in RAW - there is no other way. I use Av Mode at 6.1 or 7.3 usually, ISO 800 and normally find that I have very high shutter speeds (1/5000 or even 1/8000s) in the good light I have here. The Mk III is capable of 10 fps but I never use that - I have it set to 4 fps (Low) and 8 fps (High), but normally use the low fps. My cards are all 8 GB (the Mk III takes two cards, one CF and the other a SDHC) - I have never filled up all the combined 16GB in one shooting session.

I do have the 100-400mm zoom which I bought as my "walk-about" lens since the 500mm f/4 (which requires a sturdy tripod and gimbal head) is not really an option for "casual" bird photography. I have recently just bought the 400mm f/5.6 prime and have to say I am thrilled with it; lighter than the zoom, faster AF and much sharper than the zoom at 400mm (if you do a search on various forums you will find that this is the "lens of choice" for bird in flight photography). It is also cheaper than the zoom and has a much better built-in lens hood. If you have good light the lack of IS on the prime is irrelevant; the IS on the 100-400 is now very outdated and not "up to scratch. I would say that the image quality on the 400 f/5.6 is very close to the 500mm f/4 (which is as good as it gets). The 400 f/5.6 also takes a x1.4TCII better than the zoom with less image degradation.

So, I would do a bit more research before you decide on the 100-400 over the 400 prime. I would not get rid of my zoom because it is very versatile (landscapes, portraits, even macro) but if you want the best I.Q. and are keen on BIF shots then the 400 f/5.6 is the one to get.

Keep shooting, keep posting, and enjoy what you have and what you do.

Best wishes,

Colin :smile:

[David_Ellsworth]

Hi Colin,

Oops! I used a different kind of link for shot #1, but it was showing up fine for me. However, I tried a different browser and sure enough, it was X'ed out. Fixed now. Your references to #1,#2,#3 are #2,#3,#4 now. Now your comments make more sense! Thanks. :-)

In this lens comparison (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=278&Camera=9&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=113&CameraComp=9&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=4&APIComp=0) the 400mm and 100-400mm seem pretty well matched, with the zoom having some wide-open vignetting and a tad less sharpness in the corners (almost undetectable) — that test was done with a 1Ds Mark II, which has pixels the same size as the 1D Mark III (about 7.3 micron). However I have read that Canon 100-400mm sharpness varies significantly from copy to copy of the lens; perhaps yours is one of the less sharp ones? It'd be really nice if Canon did an update of that lens with new-generation IS. I will keep your suggestion in mind!

Regarding focus points... I've found that my Rebel XSi doesn't mind having the focus points filled with sky (it only refocuses when something with detail passes through them) so I don't see any harm in using all 9 of them... in fact it seems that'd increase the probability of the bird passing in front of one of the peripheral points during my struggle to keep it centered, causing it to refocus on the bird more often. When photographing terns in flight I use only the central point, but they move more steadily than swifts! Could you please be more specific about why you don't use all 45 points?

[Christopher Cachia Zammit]

My lense is a Sigma 135 - 400 and body Canon 400D.

[Colin Key]

Could you please be more specific about why you don't use all 45 points?

David, there is not a simple answer to this. The 45 AF points on the Mk3 are very different in the way they work to the 9 AF points on your body. With a large-ish bird in a clear sky it is possible to get lucky with "full matrix" AF and obtain some good shots - but not always.

If you use AI Servo (which most people would for BIF shots) then AF aquisition must always be with the central AF point which will then pass on AF to the other points as the bird moves off centre point; you cannot aquire initial focus with any of the other AF points.

It is also a fact that the centre AF point is the most sensitive and accurate on ALL Canon DSLRs. For this reason you will find that most people using a 1D body for BIF will be using centre AF point only and honing their skills at keeping that point "on target" (something which has to be learned by practice). On the 1D Mk3 I have through Custom Functions the option of "expanding" the centre AF point to use either the two points left and right, or the immediately surrounding six points to "assist" in AF. The jury is still out as to the merits of this function. I am currently using the two left and right "assist" points, but still feel that centre point only is best and most accurate as long as you can keep on the bird.

Another factor is that I am often on "walk-about" and never know what is going to present itself as a subject; it could be a raptor in the air or it might be a lark on the ground or a warbler in a tree or bush - in the latter two cases using all AF points is totally useless (and no matter how good you are, switching between AF points takes time and will lose the shot in most cases).

Hope this makes sense.

Colin

[David_Ellsworth]

Colin, thanks for explaining that!

I mostly have been using only the central focus point. When I use AI Servo to photograph BIF, I usually point towards the landscape while doing the initial half-press, because otherwise the lens will (annoyingly) rocket the focus to both extremes (because it's so unlikely that the bird will be exactly in the center when I first half-press) which wastes a lot of time, on the 55-250mm at least. Then once AI Servo has started, I raise the camera to the sky. I wish I could turn off initial acquisition; it's nothing more than an annoyance to me (and forces me to do a silly workaround), and it seems to have no effect whatsoever on subsequent acquisition.

On the Rebel XSi, in AI Servo with all 9 points selected, any 9 of the points will cause the camera to refocus if it hits something with detail. (I just tested and confirmed this. I'm ignoring initial acquisition.) Does the 1D Mk3 work the same way with "assist" points?

There is the psychological factor, that knowing I must get the bird onto the center point in 1-point-focus mode forces me to work harder to keep it centered! This is good practice, indeed... but I'm wondering if applying that practice in 9-point mode (i.e. pretending to yourself it's just 1-point) might increase the hit rate of in-focus shots.

If only there were a scientific way of testing this! Testing this in the field would be inconclusive, because the number of birds overhead constantly changes.

On another note, I really, really wish the camera had a mode in which it forced itself to focus only on foreground objects. Unless a BIF is filling a sizable portion of the frame, the camera always focuses on the background unless it's featureless. I don't think even the pro models have a way around this — do they?

Another factor is that I am often on "walk-about" and never know what is going to present itself as a subject; it could be a raptor in the air or it might be a lark on the ground or a warbler in a tree or bush - in the latter two cases using all AF points is totally useless (and no matter how good you are, switching between AF points takes time and will lose the shot in most cases).The problem for me is forgetting that I'm in AI Servo mode and doing a half-press + reframe with it still on... and the Rebel XSi requires me to take my eye away from the viewfinder to switch AI Servo on or off.

One from today. This is very heavily cropped and was the only half-decent shot out of 130.Colin, I don't understand... if that's heavily cropped and yet still not a 100% crop, have I greatly underestimated the frame coverage of your photos early in the thread? I was thinking they were maybe 50% crops... otherwise, why not crop them more tightly to show more detail?

[Colin Key]

A few from this morning - the sky was full of swifts, swallows and martins, but this is bird photography at the limit!!!

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J6486.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J6500.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J6424.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J6436.jpg

A little over-sharpened in post-processing, but these are heavy crops and the light was VERY harsh.


Colin

[Colin Key]

some really excellent photos here guys. Colin, got any equally good red-rump or little swifts? love the action sqs David.

Here's a Red-rumped Swallow taken this morning (others in my gallery). These birds have nested in the passageway between the house and the garage for five tears now and they are currently on their fourth brood (also had four broods last year and successfully produced 17 young).

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J6699.jpg

Colin

P.S. This, and the others, were quite heavy crops (ca. 60%) and the noise-reduction plug-in I have for Photoshop does not seem to be working at the moment - I reckon I can clean these up quite a bit.

[MichaelF]

Can't understand how you all do it. Here's my best attempt. Suggestions for improvement? :eek: :hmpf:

[Colin Key]

And here is the "polished" version after little dose of "Neat Image":

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J6699a.jpg

Canon 1DMk3 400 f/5.6 1/8,000s f/6.3 at 400mm ISO 800

Colin

[Colin Key]

Can't understand how you all do it. Here's my best attempt. Suggestions for improvement? :eek: :hmpf:

Which camera and lens are you using Michael?

Colin

[MichaelF]

Fuji FinePix E550 (what I got given for christmas!).

[Joe stockwell]

that would explain it

[Colin Key]

Fuji FinePix E550 (what I got given for christmas!).

Michael,

I'm afraid that using that type of camera, even when combined with the best telescope in a digiscoping set-up, you will be hard-pressed to get in-flight shots of any bird (and hirundines and swifts are certainly the most difficult). I was shooting in Al Servo mode at 10 fps and a shutter speed of 1/8,000s to get this shot.

I used to digiscope with my Swarovski ATS80HD 'scope and a Nikon Coolpix 4500 camera (and subsequently with a Panasonic Lumix with similar credentials to your Fuji FinePix) and spent a small fortune on adapters, brackets and God knows what, but all to no avail. I got a few shots which at the time I thought were O.K. (and in the case of a few rarities served as "record" shots) but looking back they are fairly 'orrid.

To get good photos regularly you need a DSLR and (more importantly) good quality lenses - but this comes at a price. I am currently contemplating the new Canon 800mm f/5.6 which has a pre-order price of £9,000 (thank goodness my wife doesn't read these posts!!!:wink:)

Colin

[Joe stockwell]

but........ there are things to do with wildlife that can be done such as buterflies and insects,

attcached are a couple of shots taken with my panasonic "point and shoot" you should be able to do this too with some practise

[Colin Key]

Agree Joe, in fact I still carry one of my P&S cameras around and use the macro setting for flower photos.

That shot of yours is very good, but with a 100mm f/2.8 on your 5D it would have been MUCH better:biggrin:.

Colin

[Joe stockwell]

well i would have but..
1- i dont have a 100mm macro
2-i was half way up a mountain in the alps
and three lugging that kit up the mountain in 28 degrees HURTS!

[Colin Key]

.....and three lugging that kit up the mountain in 28 degrees HURTS!

When it drops to 28 degrees here Joe we start putting our sweaters and anoraks on!!! :laugh:

Highest temperature this summer has been 43 Celsius - very pleasant.

Colin

[Joe stockwell]

yes well 18 degrees at home has been hot!

really like your latest shots, got some crag martins flying around at the moment but cant really get many good shots at all they are too fast although the house martins stop for a little while

[PeterD]

This has been a particularly useful thread. I have never managed to get good enough shots of swallows but then again I used single point af and single shot:realmad:.

I shall try again tomorrow assuming that the light in the sky is visible:smile:.

Thank all of you for your contributions. They have all helped.

Peter

[PeterD]

This has been a particularly useful thread. I have never managed to get good enough shots of swallows but then again I used single point af and single shot:realmad:.

I shall try again tomorrow assuming that the light in the sky is visible:smile:.

Thank all of you for your contributions. They have all helped.

Peter

Further to the above I took the bull by the horns and tried the methods described in this post. I have to say a very big thank you.

The weather conditions were far from ideal, overcast and dull as my image shows. This forced me to use a high ISO value 800 to get a reasonable shutter speed. Used C-AF (the first time I have used it in anger), matrix af (I usually use spot and did not trust matrix), 5 fps, and took about 20 shots. I have selected one for this post.

http://surfbirds.com/albums/showphoto.php?photo=6720&size=big&cat=

I shall repeat this when the weather conditions improve:ohdear:

Cheers

Peter

[MichaelF]

Errr . . . ooops! Mis-titled, it's a Sand Martin, not House! ;-)

[PeterD]

Errr . . . ooops! Mis-titled, it's a Sand Martin, not House! ;-)

:cry: You are correct of course. Apologies. I shall correct the image title.

Thank you for the correction:beer:

Peter

[Colin Key]

Not at all bad Peter under those lighting conditions. There is quite a bit of "noise" (as one might expect at ISO 800) - does Lightroom (I think that is what you use) have an effective noise reduction facility, or do you have an independent noise reduction program?

Colin

[PeterD]

Not at all bad Peter under those lighting conditions. There is quite a bit of "noise" (as one might expect at ISO 800) - does Lightroom (I think that is what you use) have an effective noise reduction facility, or do you have an independent noise reduction program?

Colin

As you say there is quite a bit of noise still in the image Colin and I have used Lightroom to reduce it but its not effective enough. The lighting was so poor I thought I was lucky to succeed in getting af lock at all.

I am going to try cleaning up the original in Photoplus and see how things go.

I was keen to try out the techniques the posters on here described and now I am beginning to push the camera (and lens) even further:beer:.

I am afraid to say its been overcast again all day, not a single break in the cloud cover! - how I wish we had a normal summer:cry:.

cheers

Peter

[Colin Key]

I've had a go with "Neat Image" Peter, but there is not enough digital data to work on:

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/House_Martin_-_Delichon_urbica-8272.jpg

Maybe a very slight improvement?

Colin