Egretta sp.?

[Colin Key]

I photographed this bird at Lagoa dos Salgados (Algarve, Portugal) this morning. It was seen by several other birders who were rather mystified by its structure as well as its plumage (it was in the company of several E. garzetta for direct comparison).

Not trying to make this into something which it isn't, but would be interested to hear comments from Egretta "gurus".

Colin :err:


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J7151.jpg


http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/0C0J7137.jpg

[JanJ]

Hi Collin.

I suppose you already have considered Western Reef x Little?

JanJ

[Brian S]

Colin

As Jan states (and no doubt you are aware) a hybrid has to considered - images here from spain

http://www.rarebirdspain.net/arbsr809.htm#Egrgulgar

http://www.rarebirdspain.net/arbsr806.htm#Egrgulgar

Though I note that the first bird in Spain is more like yours - though I am not sure if this was accepted.

http://www.rarebirdspain.net/arbsf001.htm

In the field how did it compare with Little Egrets?

Brian S

[Colin Key]

Thank you Jan and Brian for your responses. Amongst the people who saw this bird several were familiar with gularis and we had all seen the various assumed gularis x garzetta hybrids which have been recorded in the Algarve recently, including the long-staying birds in the Tavira area. Of the handful of hybrids which I have seen none have been anywhere near as a pale as this undivual.

Discussion centered around whether this was a mildly melanistic garzetta (something I have never seen, although melanism is relatively common in Cattle Egret here) or a gularis x garzetta hybrid. These hybrids are a bit of a minefield, where the two species are basically very similar structurally and one species exists in a range of morphs from pure white to almost black. There is then the possibility of a hybrid mating with one of the pure species, obviously most likely to be hybrid x garzetta in this region.

This bird was close to a group of Little Egrets. Oddly, the Little Egrets seemed to want to have nothing to do with this "oddity". It was similar in size to the garzettas but had a hunched posture most of the time. Some of us were of the opinion that the bird looked unwell, but it did eventually fly off without difficulty. The legs were not as dark as the garzettas (which appeared black under the same lighting) and the feet did not appear to show any yellow; this could be due to mud discolouration, but under the same conditions the garzettas feet were clearly yellow. The bill was definitely longer than that of the adjacent garzettas and possibly rather thicker at the base, but with no noticeable down-curve. There was no trace of yellowish-buff to the bill base as there is with gularis.

I have pushed these photos around locally for comment, and hopefully others might get to see the actual bird.

Many thanks,

Colin

[Yoav]

I have a tough one:

Has anyone ever considered the possibility that Little Egrets have dark morphs (or dark genes) too?
Here in Israel we have multiple records annualy of egrets looking exactly like garzettas - bare parts, jizz, structure - but they are dark. Some are as dark as dark morph western reefs, and others are pale like this bird. Unfortunately I don't have any images of my own but will try to obtain some and upload them.
Interestingly, these birds always occur on the Med. coast (Ma'agan Michael especially), where littles are common and 'genuine' western reefs never occur, but never at Eilat where western reefs occur regularly. This makes the hybrid theory somewhat problematic.

[JanJ]

I did consider dark morph Little but since I was under the impression they where darker like the one in the link below, I didn´t bother to suggest it.

http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?lista=ok&species=7830&family=&sp=search&lang=eng&manner=&sel=2&sex=0&age=0&year=&photo=&pic_method=0&pic_type=0&country=&place=&order=lisays_paiva+DESC&sel=2

But what about this one:

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=5149&extra=page%3D1

and these:

http://orientalbirdimages.org/photographers.php?action=birdercontrib&Birder_ID=797


JanJ

[Colin Key]

Thanks for further responses.

Some interesting observations and thoughts there Yoav!

And thanks again Jan for the links to those photos - that Tanzanian bird is unbelievable.

I have received replies from a number of local birders (including several who have seen the bird) whose opinions range from one extreme to the other. I have been in contact with Ray Tipper, a member of the Portuguese Rarities Committee who is collating information for a paper on "Grey Egrets" in Portugal, who thinks that the absolute I.D. might be irresolvable without DNA evidence. As I said in an earlier post, a bit of a "minefield"!!

Colin

[Morg]

Any chance it is a little blue heron - have you considered this species?

Geoff

[Colin Key]

Any chance it is a little blue heron - have you considered this species?

Geoff

If only!!! :beer:

I think that geographically, statistically and realistically it would be a non- starter.

Colin :smile:

[JanJ]

Hello Colin.

Just out of interest I nicked this from BF - taken in a coastal lake (Kirklareli) Turkey - near the border to Bulgaria in the autumn of 2007. The similariteis to your bird is obvious.

The poster threre wonder if it is a form of a Little Egret or a hybrid - with Reef?

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=165985&d=1225188776

JanJ

[Colin Key]

Hello Jan,

After Geoff's post I have done a web search on Little Blue Heron and did find the photo which you linked to. I can see some close similarity in plumage but find the bill structure very different.

After also following the thread on BF about the "possible" LBH in South Wales (Carmarthen), all I can say is that I would not be prepared to "go public" and even suggest that my bird is a LBH or LBH hybrid!!! :ohdear:

Best,

Colin

[JanJ]

I might be wrong on this one Colin, but do you suggest by your last post, that I consider Little Blue Heron for your bird?

JanJ

[Colin Key]

No Jan, I think it is more a case of me getting my "wires crossed". I have read so much on "odd egrets" recently that I doubt if a definitive answer can be achieved based on plumage and structure :eek:.

Regards,

Colin

[AndyB]

Yes, the structure of this bird doesn't seem right for Little Blue Heron, which does appear distinctly shorter-billed and necked.

[MichaelF]

I have done a web search on Little Blue Heron and did find the photo which you linked to. I can see some close similarity in plumage

After also following the thread on BF about the "possible" LBH in South Wales (Carmarthen), all I can say is that I would not be prepared to "go public" and even suggest that my bird is a LBH or LBH hybrid!!! :ohdear:

Too late, you just have, here ;-))

Though that very different bill structure does rather count against it.

[Colin Key]

Too late, you just have, here ;-))



I didn't!! I have to admit that until Geoff's post (#8 above) I hadn't even heard of LBH :eek:

Colin