Lincs Shrike Bad boys again.

[beltonbirder]

I see on Birdforum the bucket lens guys and Ignoramous's are again ruining a twitch. I also see that they have been photographed and shamed.

Birders wonder why birds are suppressed. Host county birders seem to be very respective of the rare birds in their area, but it seems out of county visitors dont give a toss.

If I saw a rare bird on my farmland patch and the idiots behaved like they are at Lincs, I would never ever ever, put another rare bird out.

If anyone recognises these birders/ photographers they should name them and get them banned from forums and have their bird photographs removed.

Why are we moving so far back in the twitching world when we should be moving forward. This disgracefull behaviour must stop.

I dont think it will be too long before someone at a twitch will be limping back with a tripod leg up their jacksie.

Get it stopped and nipped in the bud I say, The more this is published on forums the better chance we have of pulling the plug on these fools.:SLEEP: Yes it may be boring but it just gets my goat
BB

[Brian S]

Maybe it is just me, but I am getting a little tired of all the mud-slinging going on at the moment - whether it is aimed at photographers, birders, general public, whoever. It seems to me that if we talk too much about it, we are in danger of making it become a big issue, when in actuality it is not - could we begin to turn birders off from releasing news if we carry on moaning?

Don't get me wrong, I care passionately about the welfare of birds when I go to see them, and am not averse to a bit of crowd control, but I certainly would not like to go down the name and shame route on surfbirds. Not because I am a 'p-c liberal', but because I feel that this is what turns me off from logging on and reading the messages on birdforum.

I would like the surfbirds forum to be about birds - conservation, ID, etc. - and not too much of a whinging site, concentrating on negative aspects, which is often provoked by a very small minority, and more about the positive aspects and enjoyment of birding, and by-and-large it is.

Chill out and I love you all!

Brian S

[beltonbirder]

here is a good link for identification help for those who may find another.

http://www.eurobirding.com/birdingmagazines/artinfo.php?id=2379

[LeeEvans]

I totally agree with you Brian, we can certainly do without this sort of misrepresentation of our hobby. The choice of publishing a photograph without other's prior knowledge on a forum as popular as Surfbirds is abhorrent and I hope the moderators remove all such material immediately.

Like yourself, I uphold the law that the bird's welfare must come first in all cases and self-policing at twitches will only continue to serve this. I will always play my part. As for the shrike, it is ridiculously confiding and does not understand the dangers of man - it allowed me approach down to a few feet as I sat with it on the bridge. In some cases, it is difficult to walk around it without flushing it.

Once we start this sort of mud-slinging, there is no stopping to it. I was mightily miffed that birders were largely ignoring the directions on the pager and were driving to the bird, saving themselves a 30-minute hike, but on arriving, saw it was mainly local birders involved, and others that they had invited. All of them had driven past a 'Private Road' sign and did not have permission from the farmer. However, I now hear that the farmer is ok with this and has been delighted with the bird's presence on his land.

Birding has reached a new low with others taking on the role of highlighting the misbehaviour of others by taking photographs of them. This is a dangerous precedent.

[Colin Key]

Maybe it is just me, but I am getting a little tired of all the mud-slinging going on at the moment - whether it is aimed at photographers, birders, general public, whoever. It seems to me that if we talk too much about it, we are in danger of making it become a big issue, when in actuality it is not - could we begin to turn birders off from releasing news if we carry on moaning?

Don't get me wrong, I care passionately about the welfare of birds when I go to see them, and am not averse to a bit of crowd control, but I certainly would not like to go down the name and shame route on surfbirds. Not because I am a 'p-c liberal', but because I feel that this is what turns me off from logging on and reading the messages on birdforum.

I would like the surfbirds forum to be about birds - conservation, ID, etc. - and not too much of a whinging site, concentrating on negative aspects, which is often provoked by a very small minority, and more about the positive aspects and enjoyment of birding, and by-and-large it is.

Chill out and I love you all!

Brian S

BUT you have to be realistic Brian and realise that "disruption" is occurring - you simply cannot turn a "blind eye", pretend it is NOT going on, and say "come on lads, etc......".

Colin

[Colin Key]

I totally agree with you Brian, we can certainly do without this sort of misrepresentation of our hobby. The choice of publishing a photograph without other's prior knowledge on a forum as popular as Surfbirds is abhorrent and I hope the moderators remove all such material immediately.

Like yourself, I uphold the law that the bird's welfare must come first in all cases and self-policing at twitches will only continue to serve this. I will always play my part. As for the shrike, it is ridiculously confiding and does not understand the dangers of man - it allowed me approach down to a few feet as I sat with it on the bridge. In some cases, it is difficult to walk around it without flushing it.

Once we start this sort of mud-slinging, there is no stopping to it. I was mightily miffed that birders were largely ignoring the directions on the pager and were driving to the bird, saving themselves a 30-minute hike, but on arriving, saw it was mainly local birders involved, and others that they had invited. All of them had driven past a 'Private Road' sign and did not have permission from the farmer. However, I now hear that the farmer is ok with this and has been delighted with the bird's presence on his land.

Birding has reached a new low with others taking on the role of highlighting the misbehaviour of others by taking photographs of them. This is a dangerous precedent.


Lee,

The last time I met you was at the Allens's Gallinule "twitch" at El Rocío (farce though it turned out to be). After speaking to other people who had seen and photographed this bird, before it was proven to be a local escape, I drove from my home in Algarve to Doñana which took three hours. On arrival at the site (which I know well) there were about a dozen or so other birders, but the the sight which immediately confronted me was of you (wearing a pair of wellies you had borrowed from some local builders) emerging from the reed-bed with a large stick after your unsuccessful attempt to flush the bird.

How on earth can you reconcile that sort of behaviour with your above post?

Colin :err:

[darrenjhughes]

Nice reply! The last time I was unfortunate enough to run into said bloke was on Scilly in 1987 sad to see things don't change in 21 years.

[LeeEvans]

Colin, what a bizarre reply and clearly written by somebody who knows little about anything. I arrived on site at dawn (El Rocio Marshes) (not mid-morning when you arrived) and started to search for the bird extensively from then on. Whilst searching from the viewpoint, three local lads who were renovating a nearby house on the foreshore asked if I had come to see that rare Waterhen. I said yes and they replied that it had been taken away in a small van the evening before, captured with a large net thrown over it as it was feeding at a few feet range at the edge of the reedbed. It had apparently escaped from a local bird park and they had come down to retrieve it. As the morning wore on it became clear that the five of us twitchers (Robert Fuge and I and three Danish guys) had wasted our time but I was struggling to confirm the story with Spanish birders and none of them knew the location of the collection.

Knowing full well how confiding the bird had been, it was clear something drastic had changed and I said to the other four birders present, shall I just check the one reedbed where it had been living. I borrowed a pair of wellington boots from the lads working on the building and followed the appalling line of discarded rubbish thrown into the reedbed by local residents along the one track into the reedbed. The area had become so flooded by the recent storms that it was a complete waste of time and after a brief spell of trying to move around the reedbed I gave up and walked back out. There was no bird life in the reedbed. I was certainly not whielding any sticks but maybe I had some reeds in my hand after falling over. I then checked the foreshore either side of the boardwalk but apart from a few Moorhens - nothing.

Now, when you arrived, I presented you with all of this information, and not once did you comment on my behaviour.

Not once have I ever claimed to be a law-abider at a twitch but yes I am keen to manage them if I believe the welfare of the bird is at stake. I have done this countless times especially on the Isles of Scilly. At the end of the day, everybody has come because they want to see rare birds and a compromise has to be reached. In most cases, I contact the landowner and ask if it is ok to do what I am contemplating and in the majority of cases, they agree that it is the best way forward.

For example, I have managed twitches for Great Snipes, Siberian Thrushes and White's Thrushes, all mega rare birds which are incredibly difficult to see. This involves 'organised flushing' of said birds in order to see them and it has to be dealt with extremely sensitively, in order to keep the disturbance to the bird to a minimum. I have performed this function without disarray and without causing the birds concerned to much discomfort. However, once leaving the sites to their own, it has become a free-for-all and very soon the respective birds are flushed to high-heaven and of course leave the area or die (eg the Gun Hill Siberian Thrush).

I love birds and I will always do my utmost to ensure that they are the number one factor in any flush or observation method that I may be involved in managing.

[Colin Key]

Lee,

My reply was not bizarre at all, just a statement of fact. I did not take issue with your actions at the time, and I am not doing so now. There were misunderstandings, mainly as a result of the language barrier, and no-one there actually knew for certain whether the bird was still present or not and the actual truth did not come out until it was broadcast on Spanish local TV.

I personally think that your actions in going into the reed-bed "just to make sure" were not exactly the right thing to do (but maybe more understandable since you and Robert had travelled so far and had limited time in which to see this bird). But, would you have taken the same action in front of a "home crowd" of a couple of hundred twitchers if the bird had been reported at, say , Stodmarsh? - I think not.

I have to say, I do not agree at all with this business of "organised flushing" at twitches however sensitively it appears to be conducted. If you don't see the bird under "natural observation conditions" then that is just tough, in my view (but then I am not as committed as yourself, and others of similar ilk). I have heard it said, on more than one occasion, at rarity twitches (especially of small passerines), that "the bird will die anyway, so it doesn't really matter". That could be said of any bird, so it is hardly an excuse, or relevant.

This thread began as a result of alleged bad behaviour by a photographer or photographers at a twitch and I think it is a revealing discussion as long as it doesn't turn into too much of a slanging match. Birders can be a bit aggressive and overstep the mark, but in my experience it is photographers (as opposed to birders who take photographs) who normally "screw up". I have related an experience of a twitch of Penduline Tit at Dungeness many years ago in another thread (which left me hating anyone who owned a camera and long lens, but didn't have bins with them). I also remember what was probably my first big twitch, the American Coot at Stodmarsh a long time ago now. The bird was showing fairly well amongst vegetation in a ditch just south of the bund (Lampern Wall?), but there were so many people there it was a queue to get a 15 second sighting. I did see the bird, but while I was at the front of the queue it came right out into the open and bunch of guys with long lenses suddenly descended to the bottom of the raised bank, "guns blazing", to get the best shots. Result: bird disappeared for several hours and left a lot of visitors very disappointed. Words were exchanged, and I think there might even have been a bit of a scuffle, but I retreated.

In relation to what I am attempting to deal with by way of local illegal hunting here, this of course pales into insignificance. But there was a an incident recently which got me steaming at the ears: four Portuguese birders (a rarity themselves!) were at the Ria de Alvor, my local patch, where we now have resident immature Flamingos (up to 300 or so at times). These guys, middle-aged and affluent by the look of their vehicle and their quality optics, clearly got bored with watching the sleeping Flamingos at roost and one of them picked up a large stone and hurled it at them to "get them moving".

My reactions, and retaliatory actions, cannot be printed here! :realmad:

Um abraço,

Colin

[nottsbirder]

[QUOTE=LeeEvans;9866]
<snip>
L.E: Not once have I ever claimed to be a law-abider at a twitch but yes I am keen to manage them if I believe the welfare of the bird is at stake.

In truth, the only thing at stake is that you may not see it.


L.E: "I have done this countless times especially on the Isles of Scilly.
At the end of the day, everybody has come because they want to see rare birds and a compromise has to be reached"

No it doesn't. Just leave the bird alone and let the birders use some field craft for a change.
(On no account though use the previuos reported Allens's Gallinule stick, sorry "some reeds" method)


L.E: "For example, I have managed twitches for Great Snipes, Siberian Thrushes and White's Thrushes, all mega rare birds which are incredibly difficult to see. This involves 'organised flushing' of said birds in order to see them and it has to be dealt with extremely sensitively, in order to keep the disturbance to the bird to a minimum."

Oh yes! How do you achieve sensitively flushing a tired and lost bird Lee?
I remember on Scilly you flushing a Whites Thrush on St. Agnes but away from the gathered crowds. My friend and I refound it some distance away where it was seen well by many without any flushing at all.

L.E: "I have performed this function without disarray and without causing the birds concerned too much discomfort".

"So you admit you do cause discomfort to the birds then"

So why do it??? and how much discomfort is acceptable to a tired migrant.

L.E "I love birds and I will always do my utmost to ensure that they are the number one factor in any flush or observation method that I may be involved in managing"

Organizing the flush makes sure that YOU! are always at the front of the queue.

[Colin Key]

O.K. Lads,

As I said above, this is a good and possibly a "rewarding" discussion with intelligent input from all sides - let us keep it going without too much acrimony. It is very easy to overheat and "blow up" over this (as I frequently do). It is interesting to hear views from different perspectives, even though we all know that the "unscrupulous, selfish, ignorant tosser" attitude does exist out here.

More views and experiences welcomed.

Colin :yes:

[Pie Man]

According to a reliable source had I stuck around I would have had the chance of photographing 'Britains top twitcher' in the field - quite literally!

[Odonate]

we can certainly do without this sort of misrepresentation of our hobby.

Birding has reached a new low with others taking on the role of highlighting the misbehaviour of others by taking photographs of them. This is a dangerous precedent.


I think that it is quite clear from these two statements that this is not misrepresentation - there is photographic evidence of people wandering over crops and reports of people ignoring private signs. I completely disagree that it is setting a dangerous precedent; In my opinion it is setting a long overdue precedent. We cannot just ignore law breaking and antisocial behaviour. I think that it is correct that birding has reached a new low in that bad behavior has become unacceptably common and not just an occasional isolated incident caused by over excitement.

I cannot believe that anyone could defend such behavior as it is clearly unacceptable and I wonder whether those who react so vociferously to naming and shaming are just worried that they will be named and shamed in the future?

This kind of behavior can easily be removed from birding if we all pull together and make sure that those responsible are told repeatedly until they understand that it is unacceptable to all present.

Lee, while I respect your honesty in admitting that you have not always been a law abider at a twitch, you must also understand that many birders (especially younger birders) look up to you and assume that whatever you do must be OK. This applies to all of the well-known birders as you are all role models.

[Johnny X]

Out of interest what was the crop in question?

Looks much like a stubble field to me in The Piemongers photos.

[Pie Man]

Out of interest what was the crop in question?

Looks much like a stubble field to me in The Piemongers photos.

Green Stubble?? It's Kale.

[forktail]

Green Stubble?? It's Kale.

yes, Mr R.

I thought the green leafy nature of the vegetation might have led away from stubble...? And it's Kale as you say. Bloody townies. :realmad::wink:

Farmer Palmer

[Johnny X]

Green Stubble?? It's Kale.

So Farmer Palmer will be letting cows in to trash it fairly shortly?

[beltonbirder]

nah it will be sheep, so no one has found any Lapland Longspurs in it yet?

[Pie Man]

So Farmer Palmer will be letting cows in to trash it fairly shortly?

That makes it all right then Johnny. It's only Kale and thus only food for livestock. I wish I'd realised this during my two weeks on Shetland, I'm sure we'd have found much more had we trampled through the turnip fields (which are left for livestock) instead of carefully walking around the edges - Bugger!!

[Johnny X]

Just establishing the facts Pieman!

I think I'm right in saying that the Shrike's finders were trespassing in a field when they found it. And that none of you would have seen it if they hadn't!

All this 'naming and shaming' seems a bit 'News of the World' to me. Shouldn't we all be off throwing stones at a Pediatricians house at this time of night?

[Colin Key]

All this 'naming and shaming' seems a bit 'News of the World' to me.

And what exactly is wrong with "News of the World"? They might be "filth", but in their time they have uncovered a lot of the same; "set a thief to catch a thief".

Colin :ohdear:

[beltonbirder]

I really hope that a precedent has been set and we should have a name and shame gallery. But legally I think we may have to tread carefully.:err:

[forktail]

Naming and shaming will obviously have its adherents. There's a certain prurience and a distinctly humourous side to it - it's an obvious reaction to a feeling of impotence - hoping people will be responsible didn't work on this occasion and asking nicely similarly didn't work and fatboy even got a bit lippy it seems but posting his pic in public was a way to exact some comeupance from someone being distinctly unpleasant and obviously feeling impervious to criticism he was receiving in the field

I expect many will be against posting pics of 'offenders'; there's many easily forseen problems with it and Surfbirds obviously won't be in favour (and I don't think this is the place for it - it doesn't need to become like other fora). So short of physically intervening to stop this kind of thing, the only other course is not to release news of the birds (guaranteed to cause even greater wailing and gnashing of teeth and result in a whole load of decent folks missing good birds and good experiences). The readiness of people to accept a certain level of ........ry as inevitable, is certainly surprising to me.

I found a chap (with camera) trespassing this spring (and disturbing something) but when I explained the situation and asked him to remove himself, he did so. However, I subsequently found him in exactly the same spot two days later...

F.

[Colin Key]

I really hope that a precedent has been set and we should have a name and shame gallery. But legally I think we may have to tread carefully.:err:

I doubt whether the Admin would condone such a thing on this forum, but one solution might be setting up a specific "blog" (someone would have to coordinate it) to which everyone could contribute their photos, experiences and feelings? Links to the blog could be made in forum posts and members would have the choice of looking at it, or not.

Colin

[Colin Key]

I found a chap (with camera) trespassing this spring (and disturbing something) but when I explained the situation and asked him to remove himself, he did so. However, I subsequently found him in exactly the same spot two days later...

F.

I had a similar experience three years ago. I found a pair of Purple Swamp Hens nesting on my patch, a first for the this specific area, and (foolishly, in retrospect) passed on the information to certain people.

One afternoon I saw a guy with camera crouched in the reed-bed very close to the nest. His wife and another person were by their car. It turned out that they were staying at the local field studies centre and should have known better. His wife called him back and I gave him a "bit of a talking to" explaining that where he was was out of bounds and that he was disturbing breeding birds, and scarce ones at that. He was very apologetic and appeared deeply embarrassed and they all went off looking rather shame-faced.

Guess what, he was there again on his own at exactly the same place the following morning at the crack of dawn. Whether it was his presence or my subsequent explosion that disturbed the birds I don't know, but they abandoned their nest.

The happy ending was that they nested again a few hundred metres away and successfully produced one chick, but I am the only person who knew that.

Colin :hmpf:

[Johnny X]

And what exactly is wrong with "News of the World"?...

I think this is probably your funniest post yet! Top work!

[Colin Key]

I think this is probably your funniest post yet! Top work!

Glad you enjoyed it!!

I was at university (QMC in London) at the same time (late 1960's) as David Sullivan, creator and owner of that prestigious news-piece "Sunday Sport". Whilst I was hard at work carving out a future career as a geologist, David (studying engineering) was equally hard at work designing a career in pornography. His initial endeavour was to appeal to a certain clientele with particular tastes in zoophillia, in particular it was his advertisements in the classified columns of various "special interest" magazines offering for sale photos of "girls with horses". What the poor sods received in return for their £5 (I believe) was photocopied pages from "Horse & Hounds" of young debutantes sitting astride their mounts. So, no contravention of Trades Description Act there!

I don't think he finished his degree but he did proceed to make millions out of his publishing company selling "top shelf" magazines (which were a more "earthy" version of what Paul Raymond was producing).

Rather "off topic", but then "birds are birds" aren't they, and I am a compendium of extremely useful (?) information like this.

Colin :ohdear::smile::beer:

[Johnny X]

:D:D:D Nice one Col!

Anyway, these pictures of a keen birdspotter standing in the field in question made me laugh...

http://www.birdmad.com/gallery/People%20&%20places/slides/field%20.html

http://www.birdmad.com/gallery/People%20&%20places/slides/field%202.html

[beltonbirder]

Well done Colin, Thats the ticket.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Alex Lees]

Maybe it is just me, but I am getting a little tired of all the mud-slinging going on at the moment - whether it is aimed at photographers, birders, general public, whoever. It seems to me that if we talk too much about it, we are in danger of making it become a big issue, when in actuality it is not - could we begin to turn birders off from releasing news if we carry on moaning?

Don't get me wrong, I care passionately about the welfare of birds when I go to see them, and am not averse to a bit of crowd control, but I certainly would not like to go down the name and shame route on surfbirds. Not because I am a 'p-c liberal', but because I feel that this is what turns me off from logging on and reading the messages on birdforum.

I would like the surfbirds forum to be about birds - conservation, ID, etc. - and not too much of a whinging site, concentrating on negative aspects, which is often provoked by a very small minority, and more about the positive aspects and enjoyment of birding, and by-and-large it is.

Chill out and I love you all!

Brian S

Hear, hear.....

[Colin Key]

Hear, hear.....

I was just about to be a "clever dick" and pull Alex up on his spelling, but then realised I wasn't sure and did a bit of Googling. This is an unadulterared quote:

When you agree with someone, do you say "Here Here!" or "Hear Hear" ? And what does it mean? What is the origin of "Here Here" or "Hear Hear"?

— Tymoma195

The correct term is, "hear, hear!" It is an abbreviation for "hear, all ye good people, hear what this brilliant and eloquent speaker has to say!"

Of course, if the speaker is actually asking a question, such as "and just where do you think we should open the new strip club?" it's not hard to imagine that at least one yahoo in attendance might yell, "here, here!" But this would be the exception that proves the rule.

— Veg

Colin :laugh: