California Gull in Spain??

[Brian S]

This looks like an interesting candidate for Europe's first California Gull, photographed on Sunday November 30th 2008 at a rubbish dump near Pinto (40º15´41.68"N/03º38´00.94"W), Madrid, Spain

http://cid-fd6e910e72a9a144.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Aves/Gull%20ID

Brian S

[marklhawkes]

Hi Brian. The link doesn't want to work for me!

[Colin Key]

Nor me, and I have to go to Madrid next week!!

Colin

[JanJ]

Nor me. I´ve looked around - and failed!
Could you check this again Brian?

JanJ

[JanJ]

Got it from Delfingofe:

http://cid-fd6e910e72a9a144.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Gull%20ID

JanJ

[Brian S]

The link was working when I set up the post (and still works on windows vista). Thanks to JanJ for doing the work for me. Looks very interesting, try looking here for birds of a similar age

http://www.bobsteelephoto.com/Species/cagu.html but I suppose this won't work either....

Brian S

[MichaelF]

No problems here with the links (either before or now). I just don't have enough experience of Calif Gull to make any useful comment :no:

[JanJ]

Interesting gull indeed.
Structure, bill size/shape/pattern of the dark tip, well streaked neck, greater covert and tertial pattern, long wings, rel. short legs, could well fit a 2nd cykle californicus.
If the bluish cast - visible in the tibia and slightly in the bill is for real, then we are even closer indeed. However I would like to see some more images before any conclusive id is to be made!

http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/calgull

http://www.birdinfo.com/A_Images_C/CaliforniaGull_image.html

JanJ

[jamesg]

Looks like a very strong candidate to me - even down to the delicate internal dipple-markings on the greater coverts and tertials.

What else might it be? Can anyone propose a hybrid combination that might look like this?

[Harry Hussey]

Looks like a very strong candidate to me - even down to the delicate internal dipple-markings on the greater coverts and tertials.

What else might it be? Can anyone propose a hybrid combination that might look like this?

While I personally thought that this bird looked quite a strong candidate for California Gull, it has been pointed out by two birders...one from Spain and one an acknowledged gull afficianado...that the spectre of a small female Yellow-legged Gull, perhaps most likely a 'lusitanicus' type, cannot be easily dismissed in this case. Apparently, some females from this population can be very small indeed, not much larger than a typical Common Gull!

[JanJ]

The thought has occured to me - a small female 'lusitanius' but I did not find any good match, since I have only seen a few of these myself. Maybe not such a bad idea, it would certainly make all the troubles of correctly identify a California Gull - as in this case in Spain - go away. :err:, although anything these days are possible, see the recent Slaty-backed.

Check here, especially the first one at Euring 5 from September.

http://www.aranzadi-zientziak.org/fileadmin/webs/EAT/Html/gaviota_patiamarilla-esp.html

JanJ

[Brian S]

Just chipping in, but I can't see the pattern of the second generation greater coverts fitting lusitanicus, where the pattern is similar to mich with quite co.... barring....

Brian S

[jamesg]

Just chipping in, but I can't see the pattern of the second generation greater coverts fitting lusitanicus, where the pattern is similar to mich with quite co.... barring....


Agreed - could a Yellow-legged ever show such finely patterned gtcvs? Equally I can't really reconcile that pattern with an argenteus. I'd say the long primary projection is also amiss for Yellow-legged (even miniature lusitanicus), although I guess we should always be wary of using size/structure related features for gulls given the immense variation within all populations.

Aside from these two points, it seems most of the other features fall within the variation of both California and Yellow-legged / Herring. I guess that means it's unlikely to be conclusively identifiable...?

[JanJ]

The idea with lusitanius was the bill shape and pattern of it - especially compared to the image in question G030. The pattern of the greater coverts is as mentioned by Brian is usually more of less finely patterned - although the outer greater coverts on the mentioned gull is rather finely patterned against more co.... barring on inners, which also is the case in the Madrid gull. I´m in no way suggesting that the Madrid gull is YLG -and of lusitanius type, mearly considering the fact of variation in gulls. Laurent Raty,s mentioning (BF) that californicus looks like they have to large body in relation to it´s short legs and is smaller headed I agree with! Also bill size sometimes looks smaller in relation to size of head. However that might not always be so obvious according to stance, mood and wheater conditions.
So all in all -still a very interesting gull, for the time being more in line with californicus untill further comments and images are available.

JanJ

[Brian S]

Yep, to me it is still very interesting, but know what Laurent has said on BF is fair comment - it does look skinny. I can't see cachinnans in it, or mich, or agrentatus.

Below, a cach from Southwold today

Brian S

[W. Ruskin Butterfield]

I have no experience with Yellow-legged Gulls. And I understand there are problems with identifying a bird based solely on bare parts, which can be very variable. But I can not find any pictures or discussions of Yellow-legged Gulls with blue-gray on pink legs. I see a lot of California Gulls with this feature. I see that feature on this bird.

[Jrhough1]

The bird looks like a good candidate overall but it's been a while since i've had the opportunity to study CAGUs.
It does seem a little on the small-billed side, ie. the bill looks rather thin and in one image (#4) the legs look pink, not green??
If the color of the legs are in fact greenish-grey, as in #2, then it's looking good.
The dark outer greater coverts are a good feature of this age and combined with the dark trailing edge, gives them a characteristic 'double wingbar' effect in flight.
The dark edge cutting sharply back on the lower mandible is also a feature I noted on my sketches from CA.

The overall shape, bill pattern, dark, bluish-toned mantle, dark outer greater coverts and grey-green legs all fit CAGU and if this was here in CT, it certainly would be getting scrutinized.

Hopefully better shots, or flight shots will solidify the features and help make a more certain identification -one way or another. I'll dig out my notes and sketches.

Julian

[adriaens]

Hi all,

if you look at this photo (http://tinyurl.com/5wrhnf) of the Madrid bird, you will see that the pupil stands out or, in other words, the iris is turning pale.
I would think that this is at least unusual for a 2nd-cycle California Gull? Howell & Dunn mention that the number of California Gulls with a pale iris is less than 1%, and that these are adults and third-cycles.

This, together with the less than typical shape of this bird, may make it unlikely to be the first California Gull for the WP ?

As often the case with gull identification, it is important to ask the right questions before jumping to conclusions. Here, the main question is: can we be sure that this is not a Yellow-legged Gull? I, for one, cannot.

[Colin Key]

I have to be honest and say that this is one of the most boring I.D. threads I have ever read.

Colin :SLEEP::SLEEP::SLEEP:

[Simon Wates]

While I personally thought that this bird looked quite a strong candidate for California Gull, it has been pointed out by two birders...one from Spain and one an acknowledged gull afficianado...that the spectre of a small female Yellow-legged Gull, perhaps most likely a 'lusitanicus' type, cannot be easily dismissed in this case. Apparently, some females from this population can be very small indeed, not much larger than a typical Common Gull!

My first reaction was to suspect Yellow-legged Gull, although this individual certainly stands out somewhat!

Mmmm..

[AndyB]

Whilst the plumage looks good at first glance, the structure of the Madrid bird didn't scream California Gull for me which are somewhat distinctive with their stout, drooping bills and their short-legged, barrel-chested look much of which can be seen in birds in Jeff Poklen's gallery (http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/calgull)
I think this 2nd cycle bird (http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/33916134) sums up the jizz well.

Would be good to see more photos.

[JanJ]

I have to be honest and say that this is one of the most boring I.D. threads I have ever read.

Colin :SLEEP::SLEEP::SLEEP:


Maybe because we can´t jump to any conclusions. :err:

JanJ

[Josh Jones]

I have to be honest and say that this is one of the most boring I.D. threads I have ever read.

Three words: p*** off then.

[JanJ]

Just a comment on the eye colour. I´m quite amazed that I did not note the pale eye of the Madrid gull!!
A crusial character I would say, and noted by PA, which in my opinion most probably sets the gull further away from californicus! (?)
We´ll see.

JanJ

[Brian S]

I have to be honest and say that this is one of the most boring I.D. threads I have ever read.

Colin :SLEEP::SLEEP::SLEEP:

If you have nothing to say, then sometimes it is best to say nothing at all....

Brian S

[Harry Hussey]

I have to be honest and say that this is one of the most boring I.D. threads I have ever read.

Colin :SLEEP::SLEEP::SLEEP:

Gulls are not to everyone's taste, it's true, and the nature of gull identification, with so many birds defying confident identification due to variation within the various taxa, and even 'safe' IDs being based on a collection of features best fitting a taxon rather than 1-2 truly diagnostic features, may not please everyone, but I must point out, Colin, that it is a case of 'each to their own', and SOME of us on here find this debate quite interesting: even if the bird isn't a California Gull, as I first thought likely, many of us will have learned something from the discussion.
Regards,
Harry

[DLVelasco]

Hi,
This is the original mail I sent to Birding Gulls Forum. It may be of interest to some.
I tried to post it earlier but It ditn´t work. Apologies if you get it twice.
Daniel L.Velasco

"Hi all,
I am still amazed by the number of people who think that the Madrid gull is a California gull. When found, it was identified as a 1º winter ring-billed gull, and sent to a small gull forum we have in Spain. We explained why the bird couldn´t be a Ring-billed gull, and concluded that it was either a female Yellow-legged gull or maybe a hybrid Common/RB x Herring/YL. I agree that if this bird had been photographed in the West coast of the United States, it would have probably passed as californicus, because it does resemble californicus, of course, but the same could be applied to many 1º winter yellow legged /herring gulls from Europe that could be labelled as Vegae/Armenicus.... etc in case they had been photographed where the latter species winter or breed.
"Our" Cantabric Yellow-legged gulls (lusitanicus) can be very small, specially some females, and sometimes 2º w birds can show bicoloured bills such as the Madrid bird. Some of the smaller females can be tiny, not being much bigger than a common gull, and share a similar jizz with canus. European birders usually have the idea of juvenile/immature michaellis as big, powerful, white headed/breasted birds, and thats true for the average mediterraneal YL (michaelli michaellis), but lusitanicus can be very different to that, being usually extremely difficult to separate from Lesser black-backed gulls. We are on our way of preparing an article dealing with the id and variation of lusitanicus, but it will still take time.
Looking at the Madrid gull again, i see nothing really objective that can exclude a small female cantabric yellow-legged gull. Pattern of 2º generation GCs and tertials is OK. Our cantabric yellow legged gulls have a retarded moult compared to mediterranean yellow-legged gulls, so its not unusual to see 2º w birds with no or very few grey, adult-like, coverts. New, grey scapulars are OK too, as well as the pattern of the bill, as i said previously. Its not the most common pattern, but its not impossible at all. Head streaking is not at all unusual in 2º w lusitanicus. If anything, the well marked white eye lids are odd, together with the small size and long primary projection, but that´s it.
I´m not stating i´m sure that the bird is a yellow-legged, but my point here is that there´s little or nothing on the bird to be sure that it is not an odd lusitanicus YL, and, using common sense, even less to think towards californicus, a very rare bird in the Atlantic coast of the United States, never recorded in Europe. Slaty-backed gulls have a tremendous vagrancy potencial, unlike california gull. We have also thought about the bird being a hybrid common/ring billed x herring/YL gull, which could explain some of the features, and I suspect those hybrids, if inermediate between the 2 parents, could also resemble californicus, and therefore the Madrid bird, so any advice regarding that option would be much appreciated.
All the best

Daniel L. Velasco
Asturias, Spain

"