smithsonianus at Seaforth

[Brian S]

There is a photo of a second-winter (third calendar-year) 'American Herring Gull' at Seaforth, UK, posted on the Stop Press page. I must have missed this on the bird information services....

Brian S

[RoyHargreaves]

Hi Brian,

It was reported as a possible seen briefly, then later that evening as a probable, on RBA. This was at Midday on 25th - no further sightings so far.

Cheers

Roy

[garry1366]

Hi Brian,
I guess its not being pit out due to access restrictions!

Are we confidently calling this a smith? Maybe I'm in the dark ages but I thought they were still "showing characteristics of" in this and older age classes, unless they are known returning birds in Ireland obviously.

G

[RoyHargreaves]

Hi Garry,

As far as I can tell birds at Seaforth are always put out - along with a message that access is restricted and to view through the fence. Given that the gulls there typically spend more time on Crosby Beach or the Mersey than they do on Seaforth Reserve this is probably why it hasn't been reported much. I remember spending most of the day waiting for a Ross's Gull to appear at Seaforth. I finally spotted it after sunset and enjoyed views with those in the hide who hadn't left because it was too dark. Certainly before Seaforth reserve and the docks were there Crosby beach was the place - I saw some of my first Little Gulls there in July 1978 - boy do I feel old.

[Hotspur]

I thought this bird had been changed to a bog standard Herring rather than smithsonias.

[Brian S]

Garry wrote


Are we confidently calling this a smith? Maybe I'm in the dark ages but I thought they were still "showing characteristics of" in this and older age classes, unless they are known returning birds in Ireland obviously.

G

Well, I have put this in inverted commas because of such difficulties, but I am not sure that with such a dark tail this is just a 'bog standard' Herring Gull

Brian S

[JanJ]

'Bog standard' argenteus/argentatus Herring might seem a hasty suggestion with a tail pattern like this. As already done here, ageing is crusial, which is not always easy in the age class type 2nd winter or type 3rd winter. The dusky brownish inner primaries suggest a type 2nd winter over type 3rd winter, which usually has adult like grey inner primaries. Some 2nd winter argenteus/argentatus shows an all, or nearly so, dark tail, which is not a new knowledge and are therefore sometimes identifiesd as smithsonianus. Quite understandible, because they are very similar indeed, or shall we put it like, unindetifieable for certain in an European context, or?

The combination of the inner primary pattern and the lack of obvious markings on the upper and undertail coverts and rump would suggest an European Herring.

There seems to be some barring at the base of the outer t-feathers, in a similar fashion to this much discussed gull:

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/73489078

I´m not sure of the significans of this feature, but I guess varioation might be added?

Note the inner primary pattern and unifomly patterned greater coverts

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/73726908

JanJ



JanJ

[Brian S]

For those interested, there are more images here

http://stevesbirding.blogspot.com/

It is interesting how much the barring on the outer rectrices disappears in some images; also, the underparts are relatively poorly marked.

As an aside, I wonder what JanJ thinks of the first-winter 'Yellow-legged Gull' at the bottom of the page?

Brian S

[JanJ]

For those interested, there are more images here

http://stevesbirding.blogspot.com/

It is interesting how much the barring on the outer rectrices disappears in some images; also, the underparts are relatively poorly marked.

As an aside, I wonder what JanJ thinks of the first-winter 'Yellow-legged Gull' at the bottom of the page?

Brian S

Had my eyes on that 'YLG' (not a Caspian for those who might be there). Long-winged (slim rear), tip of tail seem to end just beyond p6, or between p6 & 7. Tail pattern looks fine for YLG, but I have seen argentatus with quite similar pattern! I´m trying to figure out if there are any visible 2nd generation coverts but due to unsharpness of both images - I´m not sure. Scapular pattern is not clear and the pattern of the tertials with wide pale tips and edging, (pale edgings reaching the greater coverts is not a major problem at this time of year), might be at odds for YLG, surely a good Herring pattern. Some diluted notching on the middle tertial is not a problem for some YLG's. One could go on about plumage features but structurally it could well be a YLG, head shape looks good, quite variable in YLG, bill shape and lenght as well.
However, I wouldn´t put all my money on it from these two images, without seing the rest, that is to say, on land and with the usual request for an open wing view and sharper images!

http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2cy/2cyfeb/feb2cy071z.htm

JanJ

[Martin Scott]

A similar bird was in stornoway a couple of weeks ago

MSS

[Josh Jones]

Brian/all,

This bird is well within the range of European Herring - indeed I have seen 3rd-winter birds with extensive black tails like the bird from Seaforth. I don't understand why its going out as a probable smithsonianus - this is a brave claim by the observers; the only thing to genuinely suggest smicker here really is the black tail, which falls within the variation of European Herring anyway. Everyone I have spoken to seems to agree that European Herring is much more likely here and, if it were smithsonianus, proving it on this side of the Atlantic would be nigh on impossible!

Jan, I'd say that link you referred to is a much better smithsonianus candidate than the Seaforth individual!

Cheers
Josh

[Pipixcan]

Hi Josh, I notice you have seen 3rdW Herring Gulls with a tail as dark as the Seaforth bird...as 3rd winters , that would be notable.Interestingly I have spoken to European birders now based in the US, who have commented on this bird.They freely admit that in a European vagrancy context only ultra-classic individuals of several Gull species are desirable...less obvious,non-classic individuals must also occur.The Gloucestershire/South Wales Glaucous winged Gull being an example...not a classic individual...indeed a West Coast US observer has commented on its rather unusual appearance.But of course individual variation is one of the joys and challenges of Gulling.What is interesting is the willingness of some observers to remain blinkered towards variation, especially when relatively inexperienced at Gull identification, even when they have seen only one or two individuals of a species or even none.
After a couple of decades Gull watching both here a abroad I still see new variation in Gull plumage and structure etc on an almost weekly basis.Hopefully further study will enable once thought of difficult or even impossible identification problems to be sorted out.In the mean time open eyes and an open mind would not go amiss.

regards,P

[JanJ]

I wonder if Josh meant 2nd winter (3cy) instead of 3rd winter. A 3rd winter (4cy) would usually have a noticable less extensive dark tail -exeptions occur however, and less dark patterned median coverts and clear adult like inner primaries, to mention a few features.

JanJ

[Ross Ahmed]

Attached is another bird at South Shields, Durham in Dec which set the alarm bells ringing in flight, but looked somewhat less inspiring in other poses...such as when sat on the water. Appreciate this is a 1cy (by 2 days!), and subsequent age classes show less black on tail.

Admittedly, I've looked at a lot of Herring Gull tails this winter, and have not seen a 2nd-win showing as much black as Seaforth bird.

[JanJ]

Hello Ross.

Always interesting with gulls like this.
While tail pattern (outer t-feathers) is within the variation of smithsonianus the uppertail coverts and rump pattern in all put together with tail - surely would look good for many smithsonianus. However when seen on the water it looks like a fairly normal argenteus/argentatus to my eyes. The reason for that is the sp....ly marked vent area and undertail coverts, usually more heavily marked in smithsonianus. Although rather dark on the hindneck and upper mantle, and continuing down at the upper breast side, it would have been better if these parts where more uniformly coloured. The scapular pattern is typical of argenteus/argentatus, but also for many smithsonianus. Tertial and greater covert pattern would look fine on many smithsonianus, but also on many argenteus/argentatus. Difficult to get a good grip on the inner primary pattern.
Vote - 'European Herring Gull' untill proven wrong. :wink:

JanJ

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Josh, I notice you have seen 3rdW Herring Gulls with a tail as dark as the Seaforth bird...as 3rd winters , that would be notable.Interestingly I have spoken to European birders now based in the US, who have commented on this bird.They freely admit that in a European vagrancy context only ultra-classic individuals of several Gull species are desirable...less obvious,non-classic individuals must also occur.The Gloucestershire/South Wales Glaucous winged Gull being an example...not a classic individual...indeed a West Coast US observer has commented on its rather unusual appearance.But of course individual variation is one of the joys and challenges of Gulling.What is interesting is the willingness of some observers to remain blinkered towards variation, especially when relatively inexperienced at Gull identification, even when they have seen only one or two individuals of a species or even none.
After a couple of decades Gull watching both here a abroad I still see new variation in Gull plumage and structure etc on an almost weekly basis.Hopefully further study will enable once thought of difficult or even impossible identification problems to be sorted out.In the mean time open eyes and an open mind would not go amiss.

It is precisely due to this bewildering variation, of course, that it is unsafe to identify some individual gulls which, while resembling less classic examples of a rare taxon, fall within the range of variation in one or another common taxon, as is the case with the Seaforth gull. By all means, keep open eyes, so as to note what one sees without bias, and an open mind, so as not to 'pigeonhole' an interesting individual, but also always remember that pigeonholing works both ways, and it doesn't repay one to have too fixed an opinion in favour of a rare taxon either.
Regarding your subtle dig at those who may have only seen 1-2 individuals of a species, or even none: for the record, I have only seen about 7 American Herring Gulls, all vagrants here in Ireland, but I don't see why this should preclude me from passing comment on the Seaforth bird, seeing as how I have seen all manner of variation within the thousands of Herring Gulls that I've seen.
Regards,
Harry

[Pipixcan]

Hi Harry, in no way were my comments directed at you and your opinions and comments toward this bird or indeed any other.On the contrary anyone who has experience of ,in this case , American Herring Gull or any other vagrant species in the UK can obviously contribute towards a constructive debate or analysis of a record ,using often inportant insights into ID, gleaned through direct observation.I was commenting in particular on some individuals who use the various fora and comment on some birds in an attempt to "make a name" for themselves as "ID experts".It comes as no surprise to me as most of the top ID birders I know wouldnt touch a bird forum with a bargepole,mainly because a lot of "discussions" dissolve into rather petty and occasionally acrimonious drivel.It is refreshing to be part of a thread that didnt sink to that level.

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Pipixcan,
Point taken, and I suppose I was being pedantic insomuch as that your comments, though obviously not directed at me, could have been applied to me, given my relative inexperience with one side of this ID problem (smithsonianus), though I have lots of experience with European Herring Gull. That said, as you will know yourself, EHG is so variable that I regularly see new weird and wonderful birds, most likely to be of this species: the sheer amount of variation even within the common or garden Herring Gull, especially in subadult plumages, is astounding, and it is really due to this that I made my post as much as anything else, to remind myself and everyone else of that variation.
I shouldn't think that this discussion, regardless of any differences of opinion, will descend into acrimony, don't worry about that! As regards second-guessing someone's motives for making a post, I wouldn't like to try, though I will admit to having been known to make posts to 'make a name' for myself in years gone by, so, if others have done the same above, I can't very well berate them...
1st-w American Herring Gull found in Cork today, at Castletownbere: will be interesting to see pics of this, if they emerge. Probably a bit too far for me to travel, unless someone else heads down by car during the week, so will have to gain added experience vicariously or not at all!
Regards,
Harry

[JanJ]

Just adding some images taken by Martin Reid in Scotland:

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/gullsp210.html

JanJ

[Josh Jones]

I wonder if Josh meant 2nd winter (3cy) instead of 3rd winter. A 3rd winter (4cy) would usually have a noticable less extensive dark tail -exeptions occur however, and less dark patterned median coverts and clear adult like inner primaries, to mention a few features.

Sorry all - been away over the weekend so did not get a chance to respond. No Jan, I refer to 3rd-winters, which can and do show extensive black tails. A simple search of surfbirds reveals a bird labelled as American Herring from Blennerville (Kerry) which was later reidentified as European. I have seen birds with black tails myself.

I am not completely dismissing the Seaforth bird but feel that alot more caution should be applied, rather than calling birds which are not your 'typical' smudgey-brown smiths' as probables or even "confirmed" on this side of the Atlantic.

Josh

[Pipixcan]

Hi Jan, really interesting photos on Martin Reid`s site...anyone care to comment on the Peterhead bird??? or indeed the Chicago bird??

cheers,P

[JanJ]

Hmm... it just goes to show how difficult it really is to identify, as in this case, a 2nd winter argenteus (and some intermediate argenteus/argentatus) from a vagrant smithsonianus.
Again, the brownish-grey inner primaries suggest a 2nd winter (being in March a 3cy or second cycle). The strongly barred undertail, which continues onto the vent, and uppertail coverts together with the tail pattern surely is indicative of smithsonianus. The skapular pattern is of no help, since both can show similar pattern. The rather uniformly patterned greater coverts, which could (together with other pro-smithsonianus features), suggest smithsonianus, but the overlap with argentatus/argenteus , makes it an unreliable feature. Some 2nd winter smithsonianus you see, has the lower hindneck and upper mantle rather uniformly patterned - quite similar to 1st winters, but some are less clear uniformly patterend - the Peterheadindividual being quite similar to the Chicago bird in this respect. Until otherwise proven, and with an almost all dark bill (usually paler- based in smithsonianus at this age and time) it might be just an smithsonianus like European Herring Gull.
Martin¨s 2nd winter ( with a tail band seen in many 3rd winters), Chicago gull illustrates the ironi! Must it be a smithsonianus - yes, why not, because this is what we are up against I think.

JanJ

[Brian S]

Here is the image of the 3w HeGu Josh is refering to, by Michael O'Keefe.

So, why not an AmHeGu?

Brian S

[Josh Jones]

Here is the image of the 3w HeGu Josh is refering to, by Michael O'Keefe.

So, why not an AmHeGu?

Brian S

Or, perhaps more realistically, why smithsonianus as opposed to why not..!

We still have alot to learn..

P.S Jan agree with you regarding the Peterhead bird; whilst (arguably) a more promising-looking bird than the Seaforth I would still hesitate to call this smithsonianus, and would probably go no further than labelling it a 'candidate'..

[Ross Ahmed]

To demonstrate how pale 2nd-win Herring Gulls tails can appear, attached is another bird from Peterhead. Bird's tail appeared strikingly white in field, but photos show some faint dark markings.

Presumably, as with Martin Reid's pale-tailed bird, this is just at the extreme pale end of variation.

The other option is that my attached bird and Martin Reid's bird are actually 3rd-win showing a pseudo-2nd win plumage, and Micheal O'Keefe's bird below is a 2nd-win showing a pseudo-3rd win plumage.

[JanJ]

All.

Why isn´t the Blennerville gull a smithsonianus, as asked by Brian? Good question! Are there any positive answers? I would say no, but maybe.
Firstly, the ageing of that gull might not be so straightforward (as in many LWHG in their midages). The gull, which is refered to as a 3cy 2nd winter (April), has some features of 3rd winter (4cy) such as a mirror on p10, somehow the inner primaries looks clear grey - but not the clear grey - adult like as seen in many 3rd winters and of course subsequent ages. Also note that if the inner primaries are adult like grey, the inner primary coverts would also be grey. In the Blennerville gull the base of the inner primary coverts are grey, which I have no clear answer to. Dark pattern on 8 primaries (to p3) seem better for a 2nd winter type bird you might think, but since some 2nd winter type European Herrings can show a mirror on p10 (likewise rare in smithsonianus I belive) we are faced with the wellknown problem, variation.

I dont know the observers exact reasons to why the Blennerville gull was reidentified (or just regarded as either smithsonianus or argenteus from the begining.
The bottomline is, could an European Herring Gull look like the Blennerville Gull? It can, I have seen a few argentatus and argenteus (Britain) which would be a very good match. Or where they simply putative smithsonianus? :puzzled: :wink:

I think Ross, that your white-tailed Herring (stunning individual) would be better of as a 2nd winter type due to primary pattern - no mirror and overall pattern. And by the way Ross, really good barabensis images!

https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0704&L=IBN-L&P=11244

A 3cy type from Finland, although in May, note the innner primary and primary coverts pattern and tail:

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/hannu31.html

and this 3cy type Herring. Note the innner primary pattern:

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/hannu11.html

JanJ

[JanJ]

Some more 'tailbands'

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/2ndW_HGs_2009_Scotland.html

JanJ

[Brian S]

Jan

Nice shots of more dark-tailed 2w (or 2nd cycle or 3cy, whatever anyone wants to call them), but I would still be happy that the Blennerville gull is a third-winter. However, can anyone show me another pic of a 3w herring gull (other than smithsonianus) with as dark a tail as this?

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to talk it up. Josh has said he has seen some, but I have been checking a lot and cannot find any here. Maybe I am seeing a larger number of argentatus on the east coast.

Brian S

[JanJ]

Brian

Some 2nd-3rd winter types argentatus/argenteus here with good tail markings from Ireland.
The idea is that a mirror on p10 is present in 3rd winters (3-4cy) and very usually not in ages below that. However, no rule without an exception, type 2nd winters can show a small mirror on p10 (a few 'type' this age individuals pers. obs, argentatus south-east Sweden).
The characters outlined in the excellent article in Dutch Birding (Lonergan & Mullarney) gives a few clues, but promise nothing, which again shows the difficulties we are up against!

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/arg3&page=all

The good contrast, inner primaries - dark secondaries, rather blackish in the middle section - greater coverts and an nearly all dark tail. Dark markings on p5 & 4 is supposed to be a good combination character for 3rd winter smithsonianus but overlap is to be considered, since many argentatus/argenteus are similar in this respect.

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/75092420

2cy:

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/93419063

JanJ

[Josh Jones]

Time to step in with a few photos...!

3rd-winter bird, September 2008, Co. Kerry.

[Josh Jones]

... and a few more of the same bird.

[JanJ]

A fairly good view of the tail in this presumable argenteus Josh.
Just want to show some images of 2 2nd winter type argenteus/argentatus which is to be compared to a 2nd winter type smithsonianus. It might not be a conclusive comparison, but note the pattern on the greater coverts, tail and overall contrast in the smithsonianus. Beware that this is a comparison between three individuals.

http://www.irishbirdimages.com/pages/gallery/birdguide/birdguidepage_herringgull2ndyr.html

http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=10875.0

JanJ

[Josh Jones]

Thanks Jan - its times like that when you need an SLR for the flight shots to show everything together, but the main point was to show that 3w (presumed) argenteus Herrings can show extensively dark tails. It was quite a striking bird hence we took some time to take images.

Another good thread worth trawling through is this:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=listpictures&species_id=1060

"Smithsonianus-types", mainly from Denmark.

[JanJ]

Regarding the 'smithsoianus -types' on Netfugl some of them are quite interesting, while many doens´t exclude argentatus/argenteus. Take the 2007 3rd winter type, of which there are several good images of and notice that the secondarieas seems greyer than the inner primaries, the reverce would have been expected. Also, imo, there´s something of a Glaucous Gull jizz over that gull in some of the images, not saying anything about a possible argentatus/argenteus x hyperboreus, god forbid with such a plumage!
However, a good sceptical view is advisable (!) when dealing with this topic, both ageing and indentification of the gulls in question and gulls as a whole - because it really is much more complicated than we think - the present knowledge is by far to limited, but a certain progress is ongoing (humans are a slow species, which is good, and biological right. I think anyway, that sound comments (hope mine are) is better than no comments at all. Key-species is Herring Gull, over and over again, at least many, many thousands, until you drop... and after that, you are even more confused. :wink:
Seriously, not meant to be unscientific about it, going on about how confused one gets when dealing with gulls and all that, as if you are when dealing with certain Phylloscopus, or any other difficult genus?

JanJ

[adriaens]

Hi all!

Coming into this much too late, so just a few random comments:

I would not use birds like the one in the photograph by M. O'Keefe (http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1453&d=1236931266) and the one in Chicago (http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/Image%20files/gull211a.jpg) as examples of variation in tail pattern. I think it is more likely that they lost their tail somehow at one stage (in a grinder? turbojet engine?) and replaced it with next-generation, more adult-like feathers. In any case, they show 10 second-generation primaries and, apparently, a full set of third-generation tailfeathers. Note that the Chicago bird shows a large number of replaced, third-generation secondaries also, which is quite bizarre. I am not sure what is going on there, but at least, the bird appears to be a second winter: its 10 (2nd-gen) primaries do not look unusually worn, which they would be if this was a retarded 3rd-winter (as then the primaries would be 1.5 years old).

The Scottish bird (http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/gullsp210.html) is actually really similar to American Herring Gull. The critical features are there (hindneck, underparts, barring on undertail- and uppertail-coverts, tail pattern), and bill colour is well within range. Certainly a bird worth of close scrutiny. Many 2nd-winter AHG are not even this densely barred on the vent and rear flanks (this includes a few Irish birds!). On the other hand, the vast majority of East Coast AHG seem to show a darker T5 (one but outermost tailfeather) than this in their second winter. Also, too bad there are no photos of the bird at rest.

[JanJ]

Hi Peter.

Your first link is the one by Ross Ahmed (post 25), which I presume you don´t mean to refer to when linking M. O´Keefe´s gull, which instead is this one: Am I right?

http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1452&d=1236890247

Thanks for reminding of the Chicago gull and it´s secondaries, which I missed noting.
Agree that a few images of the Scottish gull at rest would be interesting to see.

JanJ

[adriaens]

Hi Peter.

Your first link is the one by Ross Ahmed (post 25), which I presume you don´t mean to refer to when linking M. O´Keefe´s gull, which instead is this one: Am I right?

http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1452&d=1236890247

JanJ
Ah, my mistake; I meant Ross Ahmed's bird.
The one by M. O'Keefe looks like a third winter to me; note the white tips to the outer primaries.

[Ross Ahmed]

Good point Peter. Bird photographed in late February, and it presumably would have gone through complete moult the previous summer/autumn. I would imagine growing a full new tail so soon after losing 2nd-gen tail must require a considerable amount of energy, so bird perhaps doing well to still be alive. Would be interesting to know how fast a gull can re-grow feathers again, following a complete moult?

[adriaens]

The tailfeathers do not take as long to replace as the primaries. In three or even two months the whole tail can be replaced. It takes energy, yes, but going a whole winter without a tail would be (even) more disastrous, I guess.