Hants White-throated Sparrow

[Bobolink44]

Anyone on the forum seen this bird? Why was it kept quiet all winter and how did its news finally leak out now?

Some photos here at 3 amigos blog (http://www.surfbirds.com/blog/amigo/10633)

[MichaelF]

Not me . . . wrong end of the country.

Can't see anything to suggest it's not a new arrival - maybe it arrived somewhere in France last autumn, stayed there over the winter, and has now started to move north for the spring.

Maybe it'll arrive in Northumbs in a week or two . . . :ohdear:

[Joe stockwell]

The site is run by natural england, they were worried that hundreds of birders trying to park would upset the site:err: so this is why the news was'nt put out

one small problem is, i live 20 miles away and i can't get there! so looks like i won't be seing it!:realmad:

[Andrew Cunningham]

I think you will see it Joe. It has apparently been present over 150 days so looks like 20 miles is doable by bus and a bit of walking.

I thought about the train then a taxi but am currently scrimping and saving my pennies for a new camera.

Hope you see it. Looks a nice one.

[MichaelF]

one small problem is, i live 20 miles away and i can't get there!
Can you put a bike on a train to get within easy cycling range of it?

[Joe Ray]

I think you will see it Joe. It has apparently been present over 150 days so looks like 20 miles is doable by bus and a bit of walking.

I thought about the train then a taxi but am currently scrimping and saving my pennies for a new camera.

Hope you see it. Looks a nice one.
I managed it on the train from Totnes on Saturday - £31 return (although upon arrival, I was picked up from the station which saved me any bus/taxi money).

I appreciate that in some cases suppression is a necessity, for example when there is very poor access to a site, or local residents' privacy may be compromised, but having seen the site, I cannot understand what the issue would be in this case. There is ample parking, the bushes the bird has been favouring are no more than 50m from the car park, and there are various paths and tracks which allow you to thoroughly check the bushes without causing any disturbance or damage.

As others have said, a good fund-raising opportunity wasted?

No matter, it's a cracking bird and well worth the trip, wherever you're travelling from.

Joe

[andy22]

I managed the bird today at around midday. Was elusive at first but eventually showed its self, sat in a tree, out in the open calling! amazing bird, and yeah.. worth the trip!
It does'nt make sence to me why they would keep it a secret, if the bird stays well into the breeding season of other species then lots of birders will desturb the area. When it was first found there would have been no foliage, no breeding birds on territries etc.. and just simply would have been easyer for people had the news been let out then!

Andy

[Colin Key]

I managed it on the train from Totnes on Saturday - £31 return (although upon arrival, I was picked up from the station which saved me any bus/taxi money).

I appreciate that in some cases suppression is a necessity, for example when there is very poor access to a site, or local residents' privacy may be compromised, but having seen the site, I cannot understand what the issue would be in this case. There is ample parking, the bushes the bird has been favouring are no more than 50m from the car park, and there are various paths and tracks which allow you to thoroughly check the bushes without causing any disturbance or damage.

As others have said, a good fund-raising opportunity wasted?

No matter, it's a cracking bird and well worth the trip, wherever you're travelling from.

Joe

Did you get any photos Joe?

Colin

[Andrew Cunningham]

Nice one Joe!

Joe Ray that is, one too many Joes in this thread! ;)

[Josh Jones]

One significant letdown (which is a valid reason for why this bird was suppressed!) was the standard of behaviour on the twitch. Nothing malicious going on, but the amount of absolute morons present made the experience somewhat depressing.

I get tired of people on mainland British twitches these days; many are absolutely hopeless human beings who have not an ounce of fieldcraft awareness running through their veins. As soon as the bird was seen in one spot, the crowd would rapidly migrate and then proceed to stand right next to the bush the bird was in or, in some cases, actually climb in to the bushes! No wonder this bird can be elusive at times.

I guess things will never change, but it ruined the experience for me!

Josh

[Joe stockwell]

Managed to get there in the end

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3340/3438887468_54ea966df4_o.jpg

JOSEPH:wink:

[Colin Key]

Very nice Mr Stockwell, well done :beer:.

Colin

[Andrew Cunningham]

Well done Joseph!

How did you manage it? Bus, taxi, lift or Shank's Pony?

[Joe stockwell]

Managed to get a lift in the end, and really glad i did fantastic bird

Joseph

[Joe Ray]

No shots Colin, I didn't take the camera on this occasion.

When I was there on Saturday evening, general behaviour from the crowd was fine. No one was diving into the bushes, no one was yelling down their mobiles, no one was causing the bird any stress.

Hearing Josh's account of the following day however, it is much easier now to see why the bird was initially supressed. If you found a White-throated Sparrow on your patch, would you really want a bunch of loud-mouthed morons clambering through the hedges and destroying SSSI habitat in search of the bird?

Why do people find it so hard to stand back, scan the likely areas, and wait for the bird to show? If it doesn't, walk further down the path, scan a different bush, try again! You can look for the bird far more effectively by using basic fieldcraft, but you don't even need fieldcraft, all it takes is common sense to realise that chasing the bird into the bushes means it will become elusive and fail to show. How hard can it be?

In this case, it seems the majority are spoiling things for the minority - a sad state of affairs.

Joe

Edit. Pager message just out: 'Hants no further sign of White-throated Sparrow...'. Surprsing?

[Colin Key]

One significant letdown (which is a valid reason for why this bird was suppressed!) was the standard of behaviour on the twitch. Nothing malicious going on, but the amount of absolute morons present made the experience somewhat depressing.

I get tired of people on mainland British twitches these days; many are absolutely hopeless human beings who have not an ounce of fieldcraft awareness running through their veins. As soon as the bird was seen in one spot, the crowd would rapidly migrate and then proceed to stand right next to the bush the bird was in or, in some cases, actually climb in to the bushes! No wonder this bird can be elusive at times.

I guess things will never change, but it ruined the experience for me!

Josh

I would be all in favour of this type of behaviour being photographed or filmed (now that DSLR cameras are being produced with HQ video capability this would be easy to do unobtrusively) and suitable sequences which identified the culprits posted on the net in a "name and shame" campaign.

I have mentioned in another recent thread that I discovered four visiting British birders trampling through the reedbed on my patch in order to get some closer photos of a flock of Flamingos. In doing so they disturbed a pair of Purple Swamp Hens sitting on eggs (I checked the following day and the birds have gone and the two eggs are cold). After photographing these four in the act I got closer photos of them when they returned to their vehicle, and then I went absolutely ballistic. When I pointed out that if they did at Minsmere they would get a right bollocking, the woman with the group replied with "but there are aren't any signs up, and this isn't a proper reserve is it?". I told them I was going to post their photos on BF which clearly worried them - I think I definitely spoiled their day, and hopefully their whole trip. Brainless pillocks.

Colin :realmad:

[Josh Jones]

I think I definitely spoiled their day, and hopefully their whole trip. Brainless pillocks.

I can sympathise with you Colin. Regardless of location, disturbance of nesting birds is unacceptable.

Unfortunately, this is becoming an ever more prominent problem in British twitching. There are vast numbers of beginners/amateurs who have the gear and chase birds, but know nothing about how to act or behave once there.

Sadly most are too senile to appreciate what they are doing, and the only way of drumming it in to their thick skulls is to confront them and give them a mouthful.

I can't name and shame at the sparrow because I didn't recognise any of them, most were safely over the 60 year old mark though!

Josh

P.S I'm not being ageist, you had to be there to appreciate it.

[mafting]

I managed the bird today at around midday. Was elusive at first but eventually showed its self, sat in a tree, out in the open calling! amazing bird, and yeah.. worth the trip!
It does'nt make sence to me why they would keep it a secret, if the bird stays well into the breeding season of other species then lots of birders will desturb the area. When it was first found there would have been no foliage, no breeding birds on territries etc.. and just simply would have been easyer for people had the news been let out then!

Andy

It's not all about birds, you know. The site is important for rare chalkland butterflies and flora. These overwinter in foliage/the ground. Hundreds of people visiting the site in winter could cause unacceptable trampling/compaction. It's no better now, but the news has got out and it's being dealt with as best as possible. As has been reported, peope can't be trusted to keep to paths and sheer numbers means people walking off tracks. Proximity to the car park is no good when the bird goes missing - people go looking for it all over the site. It would have been much better for the site if the news had never got out. In the grand scheme of things, a ship-assisted Sparrow (and all other birds) comes quite far down the agenda for the biodiversity value of the site.

[Josh Jones]

It would have been much better for the site if the news had never got out.

Now, as much as I dislike poor fieldcraft, I dislike statements like this much more!

Plenty could be done to prevent extensive damage - very little damage was being done whilst I was there as 99% of people stuck to the paths.

I can't agree with your words as there are so many benefits from twitches like this; I'm not sure what "unacceptable trampling" is but footpaths are there to be walked upon ;) So long as people don't trample the site to death I don't see that much of an issue here.

J

[mafting]

Now, as much as I dislike poor fieldcraft, I dislike statements like this much more!

Plenty could be done to prevent extensive damage - very little damage was being done whilst I was there as 99% of people stuck to the paths.

I can't agree with your words as there are so many benefits from twitches like this; I'm not sure what "unacceptable trampling" is but footpaths are there to be walked upon ;) So long as people don't trample the site to death I don't see that much of an issue here.
J

You say "very little damage was being done", which concedes that some was being done. If the news hadn't have got out, then none would have been done. There are no benefits to butterflies from twitches like this, only potential damage. Natural England cannot accept a bucket full of donations, and gets all of its ample funding from central Govt anyway. A few crumpled fivers from happy tickers isn't going to uncompact soils and unsquash insect eggs and plants.

What's more important? A tick on a list or the conservation of a site of national importance? It was suppressed for a reason.

[Joe stockwell]

You say "very little damage was being done", which concedes that some was being done. If the news hadn't have got out, then none would have been done. There are no benefits to butterflies from twitches like this, only potential damage. Natural England cannot accept a bucket full of donations, and gets all of its ample funding from central Govt anyway. A few crumpled fivers from happy tickers isn't going to uncompact soils and unsquash insect eggs and plants. Would twitchers like it if a botanist started walking in front of them scanning the ground at the Cley yank sparrow? The arrogance and 'entitlement' is breathtaking - did anyone else get that pathetic whining ignorant weekly email from Birdguides? Each to their own, unless it damages the interests of others. In this case, there is huge potential for that, and only a selfish ignoramus thinks that a tick on a list counts for more than the conservation of a site of national importance. It was suppressed for a reason.

Do you go to the site yourself?

if not then perhaps you would like to watch all the children that are on a jolly with their families clambering in the bushes and running through the long grass before you start having a dig at the birders who enjoyed the twitch!

at no point while i was there did i personaly witness anything detremental to the site:err:

[Colin Key]

[QUOTE=Joe stockwell;13879.....perhaps you would like to watch all the children that are on a jolly with their families clambering in the bushes and running through the long grass .....[/QUOTE]

Err, :err:

Sounds fairly detrimental to me Joe!!:eek:

Colin

[MichaelF]

Hundreds of people visiting the site in winter could cause unacceptable trampling/compactionWhat's so terrible about a bit of occasional trampling once in a rare while? Irregular major disturbance events are actually good for most ecosystems, as they are natural occurrences. If it hadn't been for people, it wouldn't have been a crowd of twitchers, it would have been a herd of mammoths, or wooly rhinos, or wild cattle, passing through on an irregular occasional mass graze and rip-to-bits. Of course these no longer visit the site due to past human intervention, so something has to be done to replace their contribution to habitat diversification, breaking up the turf of vigorous plants and forming seedbeds for the less vigorous.

I've seen too many reserves, bought for their flora, go downhill and lose their rare flora (and bird interest, too) after people and/or livestock were excluded, allowing more vigorous plants to dominate.

[Joe stockwell]

Sounds fairly detrimental to me Joe!!

not entirely what i meant colin... you should be able to work that out

[mafting]

What's so terrible about a bit of occasional trampling once in a rare while? Irregular major disturbance events are actually good for most ecosystems, as they are natural occurrences. If it hadn't been for people, it wouldn't have been a crowd of twitchers, it would have been a herd of mammoths, or wooly rhinos, or wild cattle, passing through on an irregular occasional mass graze and rip-to-bits. Of course these no longer visit the site due to past human intervention, so something has to be done to replace their contribution to habitat diversification, breaking up the turf of vigorous plants and forming seedbeds for the less vigorous.

I've seen too many reserves, bought for their flora, go downhill and lose their rare flora (and bird interest, too) after people and/or livestock were excluded, allowing more vigorous plants to dominate.

And you're fully conversant with the management regime at these sites then? Or the idea that biodiversity is about managing what exists today, not some hippie re-wilding hypothesis?

[mafting]

Do you go to the site yourself?

if not then perhaps you would like to watch all the children that are on a jolly with their families clambering in the bushes and running through the long grass before you start having a dig at the birders who enjoyed the twitch!

at no point while i was there did i personaly witness anything detremental to the site:err:

I do know the site. But think about the difference in usage between summer and winter, and the difference in conditions (wet vs dry), and also the concentrations of usage between a twitch and general visitors. Again, it's the difference between general public access in dribs and drabs and mass concentrated public arrival (a twitch) of hundreds over a few days.

Do you feel confident that you could recognise what amounts to detrimental activity to the specific insects and plants concerned? But the converse is: did you recognise anything positive to the site and what it was designated for?

Why do twitchers automatically assume that the default position is 'immediate news and unlimited access'. Not everyone gives a toss to the same extent.

[Bobolink44]

Someone did try to find out if the decision to withhold news of the bird's presence was made at the organizational level of Natural England and doesn't appear so:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/white_throated_sparrow_old_winch