Great Knot, San Diego, California 1st state record

[AndyB]

Long awaited 1st state record Great Knot was discovered today. Crossing fingers and toes it stays until the weekend. Photos at the following links:

http://vtm.smugmug.com/photos/632291369_gYc6s-L-1.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/langooney/3863454586/
http://www.sdbirder.com/Birds/GreatKnot/9430841_CrWrB#632231103_yPnPG

[AndyB]

There's now debate about it's identity. Following posted by Paul Lehman on SD Birds. Any thoughts?

Greetings to everyone from my current 5-week home of Gambell, Alaska. Wish
I was home in San Diego for a few hours looking at this bird! The identity
of this bird as a pure Great Knot is now the subject of some discussion.
The possibility of it being a hybrid (with Surfbird? both species breed in
similar montane rocky tundra) was first brought to my attention in a
message from Guy McCaskie. I have now looked at the photos posted by
Brennan, Trent, and Vic, and to me the bill does NOT look like that of a
typical Great Knot in any of the photos. It looks too short and
straight--and too thin in Trent's and Vic's, but thicker based (more
Surfbird like) in Brennan's. Brennan's shot also shows a pale, dull, messy
orangey-yellow color at the base more suggestive of Surfbird. Questions
have also been raised about the bird's plumage pattern in flight--although
I have seen no photos of that or read any descriptions.

Of course SINGLE PHOTOS CAN LIE!! There is no substitute for a long series
of photos from multiple photographers, and of course no substitute for
seeing the bird well in life. So other folks will need to chime in about
whether these bill details are accurate or not, and what else the bird
looked like, such as its patterning in flight.

I heard from Curtis Marantz, who saw the bird yesterday, that he is still
researching the species. He is not sure what's going on. He also says that
Great Knot may be more variable than we thought, so this MIGHT explain some
of these "odd" features we are seeing. But more digging is needed.

[Red-eyed Video]

I looked at the photos before reading any of the your second post Andy, and my thoughts are pretty much the same. Not that I have extensive knowledge of the species but the recent article in Birding World comparing Surfbird & Purple Sandpiper made me recall Surfbird purely on the markings and apparent size although I have never seen this species.

I have seen Great Knot in breeding plumage many years ago in Hong Kong (and Great Dot in non-breeding plumage in Cleveland, UK) and they did seem longer billed and more leggy than this bird seems to be, though leg length is not clear on the photo.

A juvenile may be shorter billed but I'm sure it wouldn't show such richly marked plumage.

One for the experts or DNA analysis to solve the puzzle I feel.

[AndyB]

Thanks Dave. On plumage alone, it looks nice for Great Knot but I'm having a hard time finding photos of Great Knots with such a small bill. Here's some more photos:
http://www.blackwaterphoto.com/Birds/Shorebirds/Great-Knot/

edit

Some really good photos have just been posted by Matt Sadowski. Odd looking bird eh? Maybe I will save the trouble of a 2 hr drive tomorrow morning:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68911779@N00/

[MichaelF]

Some really good photos have just been posted by Matt Sadowski
Looks like a Surfbird! Or at least a Surfbird × Great Knot hybrid. Note the bare part colours in particular, more like Surfbird than Great Knot, going by the illustrations and descriptions in Shorebirds.
One for the experts or DNA analysis to solve the puzzle I feel.
Anyone watching out for it to poop?

[W. Ruskin Butterfield]

"Some really good photos have just been posted by Matt Sadowski." Agree. Looking at http://www.flickr.com/photos/68911779@N00/3866127861 .
White underparts marked with black heart-shaped spots on flanks; hmmm. Perhaps Slender-billed Curlew is one parent?
Handbook of avian hybrids of the world, by Eugene M. McCarthy has a hypothetical? Knot x Bar-tailed Godwit?? Has anyone read this article?
http://www.waderstudygroup.org/pubs/wsgbull/v107/graham_plume_p31.pdf .
I sense rogersi subspecies of Red Knot with short bill may be involved?

Why on a twitch is it always my job to scoop up the poop?

[MichaelF]

Did you get the poop from that Minsmere curlew then??

[JanJ]

From being in doubt yesterday, I´m convinced today, after seeing the new photos here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/68911779@N00/

Clearly not a Greater Knot. It seems that the only feature that´s not a Surfbird charakter is the bill shape/size. Otherwise it looks like a worn Surfbird.

http://www.pbase.com/wildlifeimages/great_knot

JanJ

[AndyB]

bird still present - more photos at Matt's website: http://www.flickr.com/photos/68911779@N00/ Hybrid seems a popular suggestion with Great Knot as one parent and...

[MichaelF]

"Mulrooney's Surfknot"!! I presume Mulrooney is the finder?

I guess one significant consequence that could come of this bird is a move of Surfbird from Aphriza virgata to Calidris virgata. Already suggested from genetic data, but hasn't been taken up by any of the major bird lists yet.

[W. Ruskin Butterfield]

"Mulrooney's Surfknot"!! I presume Mulrooney is the finder?

I guess one significant consequence that could come of this bird is a move of Surfbird from Aphriza virgata to Calidris virgata. Already suggested from genetic data, but hasn't been taken up by any of the major bird lists yet.

Yes, Mr. Mulrooney was the co-finder and took the first pictures.
I was wondering about the Aphriza/Calidris thing also but at least with American Wood Warblers hybridization is more common with warblers in other genus's??

[MichaelF]

but at least with American Wood Warblers hybridization is more common with warblers in other genus's??
Not that I've heard; the ones cited in e.g. Sibley's N American Bird Guide are:
Vermivora pinus × Vermivora chrysoptera
Dendroica occidentalis × Dendroica townsendi
Geothlypis trichas × Geothlypis poliocephala

[W. Ruskin Butterfield]

Four articles involving Intergeneric Wood-Warbler Hybrids
http://www.jstor.org/pss/4083334 .
http://www.jstor.org/pss/4085355 .
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1676/08-050.1 .
http://www.aviary.org/cons/Latta/10_Hybrid%20in%20Auk.pdf

"selection has produced reproductive isolating mechanism as among sympatric
North American wood warblers. These mechanisms rarely break down, but when they do, it is either
among the closely related pairs or between species so distantly related and so improbable as mates
that no selection against such a crossing has evolved"

[MichaelF]

One can only say that Parulid hybrids appear to have exceptionally high mortality rates.:realmad:

[Alex Lees]

"selection has produced reproductive isolating mechanism as among sympatric
North American wood warblers. These mechanisms rarely break down, but when they do, it is either among the closely related pairs or between species so distantly related and so improbable as mates that no selection against such a crossing has evolved"

Interesting idea, but, a quick search reveals loads of hybrid Dendroica combinations, the expected pairings within the Hermit group and then seemingly just about every other combination you can find. cf McCarthy's Handbook of avian hybrids of the world (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MwInO7z_Y3oC&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=hybrid+Bay-breasted+Warbler&source=bl&ots=cAdqDetF3-&sig=uXkXzq52kaeZbeNIx2jmgRvCXZU&hl=en&ei=vuyjStOfEoWnjAfz-NDwBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=hybrid%20Bay-breasted%20Warbler&f=false).

[AndyB]

Louis Bevier makes a good summary of how this bird might be a Surfbird + Great Knot hybrid:

http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Mail/ID_FRONTIERS/565408

[Red-eyed Video]

An excellent summary and here lies the key; This would be something previously undescribed and between two species
that, so far as known, breed on separate continents.

As we know, 'rarities' can turn up anywhere and a male of any species :smile: will do what nature intended on any continent with any willing female of another similarly related species, cf. Cox's Sandpiper.