Greenish / Green Warbler

[Ilya Maclean]

There is an interesting warbler at Church Cove on the Lizard Peninsula, that many consider may be Britain's second record of Green Warbler Phylloscopus (trochiloides) nitidus. This morning I obtained a recording of the bird and although to my ear it sounds more like Greenish (trochiloides, I would value further opinions. The recording is downloadable from here:

http://piratebirding.blogspot.com/2009/10/greenish-warbler-part-3.html

Also - a photo of the bird are available here:

http://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/RealData/RareGallery_ShowSpecies.asp?GalleryID=4131

[forktail]

There is an interesting warbler at Church Cove on the Lizard Peninsula, that many consider may be Britain's second record of Green Warbler Phylloscopus (trochiloides) nitidus. This morning I obtained a recording of the bird and although to my ear it sounds more like Greenish (trochiloides, I would value further opinions. The recording is downloadable from here:

http://piratebirding.blogspot.com/2009/10/greenish-warbler-part-3.html

Also - a photo of the bird are available here:

http://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/RealData/RareGallery_ShowSpecies.asp?GalleryID=4131


Hey mate

The call you've recorded sounds to be a normal Greenish. Definitely not trisyllabic and with a fairly high upper end frequency (c 8Hz). And the sonagrams look good. Unfortunately, some field observers have seen, and some photos apparently show, features of a Bright-Green Warbler such as the supercilia falling short etc.

So...?

Tim

[RoyHargreaves]

So....
Either the plumage features are not 100% reliable, or the call isn't diagnostic, or the bird is a hybrid (unlikely as it seems that one has never actually been found).

From my unreliable memory I am sure I have seen photos of definite Greenish where the supercilium didn't reach the forehead etc, but don't ask me to remember where this was. Personally I didn't see how a bird that appears to be a 1st winter could be so lacking in obvious yellow.

[LeeEvans]

This was an incredibly interesting bird (I saw it yesterday along with 250 others) and I must admit that in the field, everything about it cries out Bright-Green Warbler (apart from the disyllabic call of course). It is particularly dingy on the underparts, with yellow in the supercilium and faint yellow washes to the ear-coverts, sides of face, neck-sides, fore-flanks and undertail-coverts. It has a strong flare in the supercilium behind the eye and a stripe that meets the bill just but does not appear to meet on the forehead. It has a thick-based, long bill orange-yellow on the lower mandible and very rich green (not greyish-olive) upperparts and a broad, yellowish-white greater covert bar and on one side, a few paler tips to the median coverts. The yellow wash does not extend on to the chin and throat but on to the sides of the throat.

The call as Ilya Maclean recorded is what would some describe as a typical disyllabic viridanus contact call and not the trisyllabic note one has come to expect from nitidus.

What I am interested in is any information on the eastern forms of Greenish Warbler in terms of appearance and call. Magnus Robb has confirmed that the call given by the Church Cove Phyllosc is identical to the frequent call uttered by viridanus populations from Scandinavia east to Kazakhstan and which he has obtained in his studies.

As Roy has stated above, it now seems that field characters can no longer be used to separate Bright Green from Greenish Warbler. It would have been very interesting to know what sonogram the 1983 Garrison first-winter would have produced, particularly as that bird was a typical very yellow-washed individual on the underparts.

What I also struggle to understand is that much of what has been written about the vocabulary of the two/three species suggest that it is very difficult for the human ear to detect any differences in sound and that the two are almost identical. However, I can easily detect differences between the di and tri-syllabic calls recreated on the variety of CD's on sale so cannot understand the difficulties (this suggest that studies have found much overlap in the calls on the breeding grounds). I fully agree that the sound the Church Cove bird was mking was typical Greenish in terms of a disyllabic note but if Bright-Green Warblers are able to utter this note too (as I understand birds on both wintering and breeding grounds do) how can a sonogram detect such differencies. I am very confused.

I have already produced evidence from western Turkey (published on my blog and referenced from Albrecht studies) that Bright-Green Warblers there can ONLY be separated from viridanus Greenish Warbler on song and not contact calls.

[LeeEvans]

I must return again to the original work by Albrecht on the identification and status of Bright-Green Warblers in the western Beech woodlands on the Black Sea in Turkey. As we know, this population contains over 80% of very drab, non-yellow singing males which are virtually impossible to separate from Greenish Warbler. Now, most concerning is that paper's claim on the vocalisation of these birds. The call is clearly described on page 69 as being a ''di-syllabic Tss-earp'' and not tri-syllabic. I would be interested to know if Magnus or any other sound recording engineer has taken samples of the calls made by birds from this population.

Yes, the songs of these Green Warblers are very different to Greenish and easily distinguishable but if the calls really are di-syllabic then how can we categorically say that an individual giving this call in West Cornwall is a Greenish Warbler. This is where I am at pains to understand the logic. Either Richard Porter, Mark Beaman and Albrecht got it totally wrong or this Cornish bird is still potentially a Bright-Green Warbler.

[Johnny X]

What's with the name Bright-Green Warbler?

[LeeEvans]

It has always been known as ''Bright-Green Leaf Warbler'' if you read all early studies of the species but was fore-shortened to ''Green Warbler'' by those wishing to save space in field guides. I cannot say which is correct but the UK400 Club/BBA recently adopted names agreed to by the AERC Committee in general and this was one of them

[Johnny X]

Ok, thanks Lee! Never heard it before.

I can't really understand the need for a qualifier unless it distinguishes from something...is there a Dull-Green Warbler? Maybe there should be ;-).

[MichaelF]

Surely either "Bright Green" or ''Bright-green" - capitals don't follow hyphens (only Sibley uses such abominations).

[forktail]

Hi folks

There must be someone out there who has recordings of western Turkish Green Warblers?

BWP quotes Turkish birds as having a disyllabic, almost trisyllabic call, variously transcribed as:
tchew-wee, chee-wee, chi-wee, chi-ri, or with a teminal consonant such as twee-chew, tss-eurp, tss-reep etc. Also states that this call was generally found indistinguishable in Turkey from a Greenish, although nitidus is often slightly longer, more liquid and more complex, sounding almost trisyllabic.

To me, most of those transcriptions could sound like a Greenish warbler.

mmm...

F.

[Ilya Maclean]

I must return again to the original work by Albrecht on the identification and status of Bright-Green Warblers in the western Beech woodlands on the Black Sea in Turkey. As we know, this population contains over 80% of very drab, non-yellow singing males which are virtually impossible to separate from Greenish Warbler. Now, most concerning is that paper's claim on the vocalisation of these birds. The call is clearly described on page 69 as being a ''di-syllabic Tss-earp'' and not tri-syllabic. I would be interested to know if Magnus or any other sound recording engineer has taken samples of the calls made by birds from this population.

Yes, the songs of these Green Warblers are very different to Greenish and easily distinguishable but if the calls really are di-syllabic then how can we categorically say that an individual giving this call in West Cornwall is a Greenish Warbler. This is where I am at pains to understand the logic. Either Richard Porter, Mark Beaman and Albrecht got it totally wrong or this Cornish bird is still potentially a Bright-Green Warbler.

You mention in your blog that the birds from he western Beech woodlands on the Black Sea in Turkey differ from conventional Bright Green in having a horn bill and yellow gape.

I didn't (and can't on the photos) see any evidence of a yellow gape in the Church Cove bird and the bill is typically two-toned rather than horn.

[Keith Vinicombe]

Living in the west of England, I have very limited experience of Greenish Warbler, and I’ve never seen Green, so I am somewhat loathed to enter this discussion. However, having watched the Church Cove bird yesterday (on and off for four hours) I have to agree with much of Lee’s analysis. When seen at lower elevations in good light, the bird did not fit my mental image of Greenish Warbler, mainly because (1) it had a thick, pale yellow supericilum that flared prominently behind the eye, (2) the greater covert bar was the same colour (ie pale yellow), (3) the underparts were rather dull (not pure white) with a yellowy tint apparent on the sides of the throat, (4) the upperparts were quite green (the overall effect suggesting a spring Willow Warbler), (5) it had a rather hefty bill and (6) photographs clearly showed that the supercilium did not reach the bill. Now, all of this may of course be compatible with some Greenish Warblers – I simply don’t know – but it certainly didn’t strike me as a classic Greenish.

The other point is the call. I’m in no position to argue with Magnus Robb, who has clearly studied the species in some depth, but I too am confused by the analysis in BWP, which gives nine transcriptions of the call of Green Warbler, all of which are disyllabic, not trisyllabic. If we accept what Magnus Robb appears to be saying (ie that Green has a trisyllabic call and Greenish a disyllabic call and that there is no overlap) then this must surely mean that BWP has got the call of Green Warbler completely and utterly wrong. Given the normal thoroughness of BWP, this would be very surprising.

As a final point, a lot of people obtained some very good shots of the bird yesterday (including of the spread wing showing the wing formula). Maybe I’m missing something, but none of these photos seem to have appeared on the birding websites. It would be very helpful if as many of these as possible were put into the public domain.

[Ilya Maclean]

Living in the west of England, I have very limited experience of Greenish Warbler, and I’ve never seen Green, so I am somewhat loathed to enter this discussion. However, having watched the Church Cove bird yesterday (on and off for four hours) I have to agree with much of Lee’s analysis. When seen at lower elevations in good light, the bird did not fit my mental image of Greenish Warbler, mainly because (1) it had a thick, pale yellow supericilum that flared prominently behind the eye, (2) the greater covert bar was the same colour (ie pale yellow), (3) the underparts were rather dull (not pure white) with a yellowy tint apparent on the sides of the throat, (4) the upperparts were quite green (the overall effect suggesting a spring Willow Warbler), (5) it had a rather hefty bill and (6) photographs clearly showed that the supercilium did not reach the bill. Now, all of this may of course be compatible with some Greenish Warblers – I simply don’t know – but it certainly didn’t strike me as a classic Greenish.

The other point is the call. I’m in no position to argue with Magnus Robb, who has clearly studied the species in some depth, but I too am confused by the analysis in BWP, which gives nine transcriptions of the call of Green Warbler, all of which are disyllabic, not trisyllabic. If we accept what Magnus Robb appears to be saying (ie that Green has a trisyllabic call and Greenish a disyllabic call and that there is no overlap) then this must surely mean that BWP has got the call of Green Warbler completely and utterly wrong. Given the normal thoroughness of BWP, this would be very surprising.

As a final point, a lot of people obtained some very good shots of the bird yesterday (including of the spread wing showing the wing formula). Maybe I’m missing something, but none of these photos seem to have appeared on the birding websites. It would be very helpful if as many of these as possible were put into the public domain.

There are quite a number of photos in the public domain. Lee has many on his blog here (http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/11/church-cove-phyllosc-selection-of.html) and Steve Rogers has some more here (http://www.swopticsphoto.com/2009/11/greenish-warbler-at-church-cove-lizard.html), some of which are also on Lee's blog, along with one or two more.

Steve Rogers' photo of the bird with an open wing suggest a more typical Green Warbler wing formula - i.e. P3 and P4 are the longest and P2 is between P6 and P7 in length. However, Jim Lawrence's photo on Lee's blog suggest a wing formula more typical of Greenish - i.e. P4 & 5 look the longest and p2=P7-8. I suppose this demonstrates the hazard of determing wing formulae from photographs.

If you look at the published sonograms of Green Warbler, here (http://www.dutchbirding.nl/journal.php?page_id=169) for example, you can see that Green almost always has a W-shaped sonogram. Given that each leg represents a seperate syllable, Green Warblers actually have a quad-syllabic call. Presumably the reason they are described as tri-syllabic stems from the difficulty of distinguishing individual syllables in a short, rapid call. They may also sound di-syllabic in some instances. I struggle a bit to hear three syllables on some of the calls on Hannu Jännes's CD (although they calls sound distinctively different from Greenish). Perhaps that is the source of confusion?

[JanJ]

The swedish bird 29 May 2003. (which I didn´t see myself)

http://www.sofnet.org/ofstn/apps/reports/219.pdf

http://user.tninet.se/~qtv676x/2003/kaukasisklundsangare.htm

http://www.club300.se/Gallery/ViewImage.aspx?imageID=4901

http://web.comhem.se/lars.friberg/tattingar/k-lundsangare2.htm

JanJ

[Paul French]

So....
Either the plumage features are not 100% reliable, or the call isn't diagnostic, or the bird is a hybrid (unlikely as it seems that one has never actually been found).

From my unreliable memory I am sure I have seen photos of definite Greenish where the supercilium didn't reach the forehead etc, but don't ask me to remember where this was. Personally I didn't see how a bird that appears to be a 1st winter could be so lacking in obvious yellow.

Not much help to this discussion, but the supercillia on this bird did not join on the forehead. This was pretty obvious in the hand, but unfortunately, its not clear from these photos.
http://www.spurnbirdobservatory.co.uk/sightings/september07.html

[Tom McKinney]

The second part of the Green Warbler (nitidus) track on the Hannu Jannes Eastern Vagrants CD changes into a downward slurred call (described in the notes as monosyllabic). The CD notes remark on the similarity to Greenish Warbler (viridanus) and that this call is occasionally heard from wintering birds. The track was recorded in November in Goa.

Obviously the tri- and di-syllable thing is not totally reliable, but sonagrams made of the Cornwall bird show that it is calling between c.4 - 8kHz (consistent with the sonagrams of Greenish in BWP), whereas the 2 sonagrams in BWP of Green Warbler show one call between c.3 - 7kHz and another at c.3.5 - 7.5kHz. The Green Warbler sonagrams in BWP were recorded in May and June.

So how consistent are the differing frequency ranges in Green and Greenish? Many birds show variation in their calls, so is the frequency more reliable than differences in the structure of the call?

Tom

By the way, is it sonagram or sonogram? I see both used.

[LeeEvans]

I am still awaiting any sort of confirmation that the western GREEN WARBLERS in Turkey have been sound-recorded, as this is where information is very poorly lacking. It seems that most studies of this species have been either undertaken at Sumela Monastery or in the firwoods at Sivri Kaya - both locations which are easily and highly accessible and also offer the observers a wealth of other birding opportunities. In recent years, some work has been undertaken on the Georgian population.

I accept that many of the features taken in isolation of the Church Cove bird could easily be construed as features occasionally found on Greenish Warbler but to be all present on one individual - that really is stretching the imagination.

I am no expert in sound-recording and have no idea whatsoever how the science behind it works but as an example, how would the sonogram appear of a Common Starling that can mimic Corncrake identically?

Turkish Green Warbler authors including Cees Roselaar are still standing by what they have written regarding the species' variability in that country and maintain that the differencies in call between them and viridanus are very often indistinguishable from viridanus Greenish to the human ear - and much of what is written on this species in BWP is based on this original work

[LeeEvans]

JanJ

Although it is difficult to compare the Swedish May bird with our early November bird, do you know whether or not this bird was sound-recorded and conformed with the typical slurring tri-syllabic note of Bright Green Warbler?

[forktail]

By the way, is it sonagram or sonogram? I see both used.

Hi Tom
Technically it's sonogram. Sonagram is drived from a tradename. You can also call them sound spectrograms. If you like. So I'm told.

Anyone doing Turkey next spring might like to consider taking a mike and recorder...

Tim

[stenura]

JanJ

Although it is difficult to compare the Swedish May bird with our early November bird, do you know whether or not this bird was sound-recorded and conformed with the typical slurring tri-syllabic note of Bright Green Warbler?

Hi Lee. I'm afraid the Swedish bird wasn't recorded. It was a rather silent individual, and was only heard by very few (one?) observers. It was said to use a more "plumbeitarsus-like" call, with three syllables.

In Siberia, plumbeitarsus commonly use the tri- (or perhaps more than so) syllabic call. But there is some degree of variation, and it's not unusual to hear (by human ear) calls with only two. In the light of this I would be surprised if such calls should exclude nitidus...

Cheers
/Magnus Hellström

[LeeEvans]

An individual has very kindly provided me with more information this morning and the isolated population in Turkey really is surprising - being just over 100 miles east of Istanbul and in predominantly Beech and other mixed deciduous trees - well outside the normal distribution of Bright Green Warbler. We really do need some serious study of this population and Magnus Robb has confirmed this morning that he knows nothing of this population and has never visited there. I have written to another Turkey specialist Arnoud van den Berg to see if he can shed any further light on it. Are these birds even still in existence, 30 years after their documentation?

Later today, I shall place on record the full description and account of the 1983 St Mary's occurrence of Bright Green Warbler. Although I know the names of the four original finders, does anybody know who first put forward the theory that it was a Green Warbler. It was initially identified as an odd-looking Greenish Warbler by the four above. I seem to remember Peter Grant's name being uttered but I would like to know for definite. I was repeatedly twitching the island that week (it was a week or so before my usual holiday stay) and so was not fully aware of the intracacies surrounding the identification.

[LeeEvans]

Ignore my last message about finders - it was Barry Reed, Pete Hines, Adam Davison and Mark Pierman that initially identified the Scilly Bright Green Warbler after Paul Holt and John Ross had originally discovered the bird. There is only one surviving image taken by Robin Chittenden of the bird - published in Phil Palmer's ''Firsts for Britain and Ireland''. If anyone else has an image or artwork, I would love to receive it

Many thanks

Lee Evans

[JanJ]

JanJ

Although it is difficult to compare the Swedish May bird with our early November bird, do you know whether or not this bird was sound-recorded and conformed with the typical slurring tri-syllabic note of Bright Green Warbler?


Yes Lee, maybe not comparable - just meant as a note that it has also occurred in Sweden so to speak. Magnus gave the appropriate info!

JanJ

[LeeEvans]

JanJ

Yes, and I fully appreciate you bringing it to the fore with images - many, many thanks. A very perplexing episode with still few answers.

All the very best

Lee Evans

[forktail]

An individual has very kindly provided me with more information this morning and the isolated population in Turkey really is surprising - being just over 100 miles east of Istanbul and in predominantly Beech and other mixed deciduous trees - well outside the normal distribution of Bright Green Warbler. We really do need some serious study of this population and Magnus Robb has confirmed this morning that he knows nothing of this population and has never visited there. I have written to another Turkey specialist Arnoud van den Berg to see if he can shed any further light on it. Are these birds even still in existence, 30 years after their documentation?
.

Lee,

Guy Kirwan might be someone to contact. He recorded Green Warbler near Istanbul (Soguksu?) and another site close by in at least 1999. And others have recorded it more recently for sure. There are records from Uludag too, and this is rather far west.

This is from a recent report (http://www.netfugl.dk/trip_reports/europe/tyrkrapport_2005-2007_KMO.pdf)from the north-west: Call similar to Greenish Warbler (tse-li, somewhat similar to call of White Wagtail), but often includes an extra tone, thus appearing three-toned ."tse-tsi-ly". There are also interesting comments on plumage...
Tim

[LeeEvans]

Tim

Many, many thanks for guiding me to Klaus Malling Olsen's very detailed trip report from his long visit to the country. His findings are very similar to my own in the extreme east but it is interesting once again to read comments stating how complex and variable the contact calls of Turkish Green Warblers are and of course how drab they can often be.

Hopefully Guy Kirwan or the like is aware of this thread as I find it very difficult to raise him by email these days but I will try.

[Brian S]

I have been on Scilly for the past week, away from the internet (and good birds some might say), so have been catching up on all the chat re the Greenish Warbler at Church Cove.

I have no desire to repeat all that has been said here and on Birdforum; in my opinion the right conclusion has been reached. I would say that some may have an idea of Greenish Warbler in their heads, and it is surprising how many are actually brighter than this gestalt image, with brighter upperparts and more yellow in the face and supercilium. One observer, present on Saturday, who I spoke to on the phone, said if this had occurred on the east coast in September, it would not have been thought of as anything other than Greenish. Indeed, there have been three such bright Greenish in Suffolk alone (two in Lowestoft and one recently at Landguard - the attached image below by Scott Mayson illustrates this).

Roy Hargreaves on BF has summed the bird up well (I hope he won't mind me copying his words here): 'I have seen 100+ Green Warblers in India in November and 20+ Greenish in UK & India so have some experience. And I will state hear that I didn't make the trip as the first photo put me right off.

The first thing I would say is this. The key to any explanation as to the bird's plumage is surely ageing it. It is my understanding from literature that Green & Greenish both moult completely on the wintering grounds about Feb/Mar time. Adults have a partial head/body moult in the summer (post-breeding I assume). So any bird with fresh wings and a good wing-bar at this time of year will be a first-winter. Why anyone would compare that with breeding birds in the first instance surprises me as their plumage state will be completely different. So the bird at Church Cove I would say is obviously an immature looking at the wing-bar. That being the case the head and body feather can safely be assumed to be fresh rather than worn. So you would expect extensive strong lemon-yellow on the supercilium, remainder of the head and chin down through most of the underparts. While I would concede that this bird MIGHT have some variation from a normal Greenish - none of this really puts it in the Green Warbler camp. It just isn't yellow enough for a fresh autumn immature. Also to me the wing-bar structure looked very wrong on John Martin's pic, but slightly better in subsequent pics, but still not enough to sway the balance to Green Warbler.

Also the call on the recordings of the Church Cove bird is definitely that of Greenish. I think whether Green's call is disyllabic or trisyllabic is open to interpretation, but it certainly has a buzz to it and is discernible in the field from Greenish and definitely on recordings.'

He has put his opinions better than I could and my experience in India echoes his.

Brian S

[Paul Woolnough]

I have been on Scilly for the past week, away from the internet (and good birds some might say), so have been catching up on all the chat re the Greenish Warbler at Church Cove.

I have no desire to repeat all that has been said here and on Birdforum; in my opinion the right conclusion has been reached. I would say that some may have an idea of Greenish Warbler in their heads, and it is surprising how many are actually brighter than this gestalt image, with brighter upperparts and more yellow in the face and supercilium. One observer, present on Saturday, who I spoke to on the phone, said if this had occurred on the east coast in September, it would not have been thought of as anything other than Greenish. Indeed, there have been three such bright Greenish in Suffolk alone (two in Lowestoft and one recently at Landguard - the attached image below by Scott Mayson illustrates this).

Roy Hargreaves on BF has summed the bird up well (I hope he won't mind me copying his words here): 'I have seen 100+ Green Warblers in India in November and 20+ Greenish in UK & India so have some experience. And I will state hear that I didn't make the trip as the first photo put me right off.

The first thing I would say is this. The key to any explanation as to the bird's plumage is surely ageing it. It is my understanding from literature that Green & Greenish both moult completely on the wintering grounds about Feb/Mar time. Adults have a partial head/body moult in the summer (post-breeding I assume). So any bird with fresh wings and a good wing-bar at this time of year will be a first-winter. Why anyone would compare that with breeding birds in the first instance surprises me as their plumage state will be completely different. So the bird at Church Cove I would say is obviously an immature looking at the wing-bar. That being the case the head and body feather can safely be assumed to be fresh rather than worn. So you would expect extensive strong lemon-yellow on the supercilium, remainder of the head and chin down through most of the underparts. While I would concede that this bird MIGHT have some variation from a normal Greenish - none of this really puts it in the Green Warbler camp. It just isn't yellow enough for a fresh autumn immature. Also to me the wing-bar structure looked very wrong on John Martin's pic, but slightly better in subsequent pics, but still not enough to sway the balance to Green Warbler.

Also the call on the recordings of the Church Cove bird is definitely that of Greenish. I think whether Green's call is disyllabic or trisyllabic is open to interpretation, but it certainly has a buzz to it and is discernible in the field from Greenish and definitely on recordings.'

He has put his opinions better than I could and my experience in India echoes his.

Brian S
Thanks to Brian and other forum contributors on this thread.

I saw one of the bright greenish warblers, mentioned above at Gunton Lowestoft on 25 August 2003.

BBRC 2003 report extract
Greenish Warbler Phylloscopus trochiloides
European and west Siberian race P. t. viridanus (12, 356, 12)
Suffolk Gunton, 25th-26th August, photo (J.A.Brown, A.Easton, J.Wright et al.).

Lowestoft Bird Club Lounge Lizard webside archive for August 2003 says:
"its appearance changed dramatically depending on the light"
and
"in our opinion it looked like a typical Greenish Warbler when ever we had good views"

[LeeEvans]

There has been no shortage of 'yellow-washed' Greenish Warblers over the years and I have seen many of them, including the three mentioned by Brian in Suffolk. What Brian fails to take into account is that birders like Keith Vinicombe and myself are not inexperienced bystanders. I have probably seen more Greenish Warblers in Britain than any other observer and certainly see more Bright Green Warblers, certainly in Turkey, more than most. I also see many Greenish Warblers in Scandinavia and have also seen many Bright Green Warblers in Georgia and in India. I therefore find it quite disappointing to be dismissed so readily. I believe the 620 miles I travelled for this bird were worthwhile and still stand by everything I have written about it - it was a very interesting and intriguing individual. I do not deny that the sounds it was making were typical of Greenish Warbler - I knew that before I went as Brett Richards repeated it to me on numerous occasions, as did John Swann. I also knew that it did not have yellow on the chin and throat - critical in the identification of nitidus - as Martin Elliott's sketch on BirdGuides had clearly illustrated that. However, I have never seen a British Greenish Warbler so late in the year and with the suite of characters this individual showed, whatever anyone says.

We can all be 'experts' after the event but instigating debate and interest is surely what counts in any identification issue. It is interesting that Brian flags up these Suffolk individuals - one of which was strongly claimed as a Bright Green Warbler by Graham Etherington and others at the time, another at Gunton which was certainly highlighted as a Bright Green Warbler for some time and a Landguard individual that was originally reported to me as a Two-barred Greenish Warbler by the Suffolk grapevyne. Whether any of these could be used as 'representative' examples of typical Greenish Warblers' is perhaps debateable.

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Lee,
Speaking as one who is removed from the politics of the British birding scene, I never got the impression that you or your opinions were being 'dismissed', as you put it. Sure, some people have disagreed with your position, but I would tend to put this down to a differing interpretation of the available evidence based on the tone of the discussion, which has been largely free of ego and has concentrated on the matter at hand.
So, back to the bird itself. While I have been very interested in this discussion from the start, I have felt unqualified to comment with any authority, not least as, unfortunately, I have never seen Green Warbler anywhere. My sum total of field experience of the 'Greenish complex' boils down to three 1cy viridanus in autumn here in Ireland, and perhaps 15-20 Two-barred Greenish in China in May: anything else I know about the group has been gleaned from the literature. As stated earlier, I have greatly appreciated this discussion, as I have learned, and been forced to learn, a lot more about Green Warbler identification than I knew before this.
As a result of the discussion, and perhaps this might just be a reflection of my own lack of experience, a few questions have been raised in my mind, and I am outlining them on here in the hope that someone can provide some satisfactory answers to some or all of them.
1) In the Dutch Birding article by van der Vliet, Kennerley and Small, it is stated that 'In fresh plumage, whitish coloration of the underparts rules out eastern Bright-green Warbler (including those of eastern Turkey) because in fresh plumage the underparts in this taxon are conspicuously washed with yellow. However, this is not the case for Bright-green Warbler of western Turkey (cf Albrecht 1984, van der Have 1987).'
yet, in the following post on the UK 400 blog (http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/10/more-on-bright-green-warbler.html), it seems to be the case that dull birds are not confined to western Turkey at all, but occur seemingly throughout the range to varying degrees.
In addition, here is what van der Have had to say on the subject:
'The classical image of the Green Warbler is formed by bright green upperparts
and yellow underparts. This might be the case with juveniles in fresh plumage,
but spring individuals in the Turkish populations have frequently been observed
with grey-green upperparts and whitish underparts, of which our mystery bird is
a fine example. This intriguing species is limited to the Caspian Mountains, with
a recently discovered population in western Turkey (Sandgrouse 6: 69-75, 1984).
so, again, it seems to me that all indications are that birds with limited yellow, whether these are in western Turkey or elsewhere in the range of nitidus, are adults in varying states of wear. Is there any indication that 1cy nitidus, of whatever geographical origin, can show such limited yellow as seen on the Cornish bird, and what exactly do 1cy 'western nitidus' look like in late autumn?

2) The discovery of a bird in the background of one recording of 'western nitidus' with similar calls to that of viridanus is intriguing, but what, if any, are the implications of this? Magnus Robb, as quoted on the UK 400 blog, states that 'the bird in Arnoud's recording did not use this call exclusively, but used it frequently in among more typical calls'...seeing as how the Cornish bird was never heard to utter calls more typical of nitidus at any stage during its stay, does this count against it as a candidate for Green?
I must stress that these questions are mainly for my own edification, and are in no way intended as a personal 'attack' on the bird's credentials.
Regards,
Harry

[Brian S]

Lee

I was never my intention to dismiss your point of view, and certainly not Keith's - for whom I have the highest regard, and have not heard his opinion about the bird other than secondhand.

I have seen Greenish in Finland, but never 'many', however I have been in the Madhyr Pradesh, India in the past three winters. Here, apart from Hume's Warbler (which seems abundant in some areas, e.g. Kanha and Bandhavgarh), it is the second most common Phyllosc - maybe 1000s heard or seen, whilst I have also seen a good number of 1-w Bright-green. It is interesting to note the variation in Greenish, with some birds washed more yellow than we seem to expect in the UK, but the call is so distinct that I never suspect Bright-green. When I hear a Bright-green it seems quite obvious to me, and can confirm Roy H's and Harry's comments above, 1-ws are washed quite strongly yellow below.

Just read the info from Magnus Robb on BBA; interesting, but unless I am wrong, I think that the Cornish bird only called like a Greenish, and frequently in sequence. I feel it unlikely that a Bright-green, even from Turkey, would never call like a Bright-green......

ATB

Brian S

[LeeEvans]

To be fair to Brian, he has not had the benefit of seeing all of the discussion and debate that perhaps has been instigated on the UK400 Club forum, particularly in relation to the supposed variation in contact calls and physical appearance of both first-winter and adult-type Bright Green Warblers, although it does seem like he has studied what I have published on the blog. There appears to be widespread disagreement of the specific identification of nitidus and in many areas it appears to be so difficult that some observers are very confused by what they are actually seeing and recording.

I would like to see some ringing studies, a wide selection of images showing the variation in underparts and recordings made of Bright Green Warblers wintering in Goa and Sri Lanka ande elsewhere within their distribution and I would also like to see further studies made of the dull individuals in the Uludag Mountains region of western Turkey.

Magnus is extremely keen to receive recordings made of first-winter birds in India as he feels that this is where there is a major flaw in our knowledge. OK Brian has stated that he has heard many Green Warblers and finds then relatively easy to distinguish from Greenish but for some reason, many other birders with a wealth of experience on that continent are struggling including Mike Prince who sent me some detail.

I am certainly not in a position to answer Harry's queries sadly but will try and get him some answers.

As I keep on harping on about - the Lizard bird appeared to have structural differences to typical Greenish, with a longer more broad-based bill, much brighter on the lower mandible and a more compact and rotund appearance body-wise. The greater covert bar is very prominent and yellow-washed, much more obvious than on typical Greenish. The supercilia do not meet on the forehead and they flare out behind the eye, very similar to the 1983 Green Warbler, and although very subtle, there is yellow on much of the underparts and the bird is very dingy beneath, not typically silvery-white.

I realise that I am never going to be able to prove that the bird is a Green Warbler and the fact that it lacks yellow on the chin and throat (and lacks the extensive yellow wash that first-winter nitidus reportedly always has) and constantly repeated the typical di-syllabic note over 60 consecutive occasions is very suggestive of Greenish Warbler. If that is the case, then we really must re-write the identification criteria for the species.

I shall continue my review of this interesting record and once I have gathered all relevant material, shall make a further pronouncement on what I have found.

[Alex Lees]

Interesting discussion and an 'interesting bird'.

I have a few further questions:

1) Is there a precedent for a Greenish Warbler staying into November before? I guess many late birds may have been binned as tristis 'type' Chiffchaffs in the recent review? Maybe you can help us out with this one Lee? The Birdguides database does not hold a record later than this one. Although this needn't have any bearing on the specfic identification of the bird, it does obviously suggest that this individual probably isn't a Scandinavian drift migrants and could well have come from a long way east - as a vagrant with a 'deviant' migratory orientation. How much variation is there within viridanus Greenish? Given that the majority of the birds UK observers see are assumed to be from Fennoscandinava, could this have any bearing on people's perception of variation in viridanus? I guess Brian is best placed to answer that, although how useful are skins in this case?

2) Green Warbler was split in the TSC's 5th report, yet I can find no data on the utility of contact calls in separating the species there. Elsewhere we had been told in Collinson et al. (2003): 'The call of nitidus is similar to that of plumbeitarsus and different from that of typical viridanus, although within viridanus itself it is certainly variable'.
Has Lars Svensson published any of the data that prompted the split (he did present some of it aurally here (http://www.boc-online.org/meetings.htm)). It just seems like a big u-turn to me from the earlier statement in Collinson et al.:

Variation within both nitidus and the other Greenish Warbler taxa makes the diagnosability of ‘Green Warbler’ uncertain. The yellow colour of the supercilium, and sides of head and neck, would probably fulfil diagnosability criteria if this character was present in all individuals, yet this has been shown not to be the case. With further research, it might possibly be shown that, in addition to the molecular differences, viridanus and nitidus are 100% diagnosable on the basis of a combination of plumage and biometric characteristics. In the absence of this evidence, we have to conclude that nitidus is still best regarded as a subspecies of P. trochiloides at present.

So, what exactly changed and can we get the DB paper on here? I appreciate that there has been much evidence gleaned here from personal experience, but exactly what has been committed to paper on the subject?

cheers

Alex

[mafting]

it does obviously suggest that this individual probably isn't a Scandinavian drift migrants and could well have come from a long way east - as a vagrant with a 'deviant' migratory orientation.

Hi Alex, just a quick question - what's the evidence that migrants present in Britain later in the 'season' are from further east than those appearing earlier? Is this an assumption or is there good evidence to support it? Obviously the resonable assumption is that a bird coming from further away will take longer to arrive, but we know from ringing etc that some passerines can cover 000s of km in a relatively short time, so the difference between a 2000km origin and a 7000km origin might not be much (days?).

[Brian S]

Hi Lee

Just to clarify, I have not heard 'many' Bright-green Warblers, but those that I have, in the context of having heard many Greenish (and getting my 'ear in'), seemed distinct....if you see what I mean.

Brian

[LeeEvans]

There is very little published on the variation and 'real' differencies in the Greenish Warbler populations and although Lars Svensson has studied all of those labelled in the trays at Tring Museum and elsewhere, he has not made any examinations of them in the field.

If you take the labels on the Tring Museum specimens to be accurate, then trochiloides which occurs in the central and east Himalayas and in central China is markedly darker green on the upperparts and quite greyish-white below and has a shorter wing length when compared with viridanus (the western form, breeding from Finland and Poland east through western Siberia to the Yenesei River, south through NW Mongolia to northern Afghanistan and the NW Himalayas, the Tian Shan mountains and the west Pamir range).

In the western Himalayas, the form ludlowi is described, this form being somewhat intermediate between the two forms above, again being a shorter distance migrant bearing a shorter wing projection, paler green above and quite olive-grey around the underparts.

There is also a much more restricted form obscuratus, occurring to the north of the nominate form in central China. Again, quite deep green on the upperparts with a very contrasting head pattern, the supercilia being notably white in many individuals.

[Marcus]

Alex (et al),
RBA have kindly published the article here (http://www.rarebirdalert.co.uk/RealData/ArticleDocument.asp?id=529&doc=529.pdf) hopefully it isn't subscribers only (if it is then sign up for a free trial).

This has been a great thread and although it would be far to easy to state that Lee is "just after a tick" this would be incredibly disingenuous as he is clearly trying to help fill a gap in the knowledge base for the Greenish Warbler complex. Thanks to all involved.

[Alex Lees]

Hi Alex, just a quick question - what's the evidence that migrants present in Britain later in the 'season' are from further east than those appearing earlier? Is this an assumption or is there good evidence to support it? Obviously the resonable assumption is that a bird coming from further away will take longer to arrive, but we know from ringing etc that some passerines can cover 000s of km in a relatively short time, so the difference between a 2000km origin and a 7000km origin might not be much (days?).

Hi Richard

It is an assumption, based on the fact that you can roughly organise the median arrival dates of rare Phylloscs: Greenish, Arctic, Yellow-brow, Raddes, Dusky, Pallas's, Hume's which fits roughly with a distance-based model. Saying that Eastern Crowned comes from even further away and would slot in before the bulk of the Pallas's I guess. There are likely to be species-specfic departure dates so maybe ECW sets off earlier than Pallas's anyway? What we do know about sibe Phyllsocs is that the first arrivals in Finland of YBW occur in late August yet they don't make the UK until mid Sept so I don't think they are in that much of a hurry to get here (although it would be within their physiological limits to achieve this as you point out).

Either way an 'eastern origin' its just a working hypothesis to explain the 'problems' with the bird's appearance and might explain why the bird doesn't fit the search image some observers have for Greenish Warbler. Equally, I think however that this bird does provide a good working example to test the field identification of nitidus...

Alex

[MichaelF]

based on the fact that you can roughly organise the median arrival dates of rare Phylloscs: Greenish, Arctic, Yellow-brow, Raddes, Dusky, Pallas's, Hume's which fits roughly with a distance-based model
Not well at all! There's also a strong latitude-of-origin component, with southerly species (from where the summer lasts later) moving later than more northerly origin species: not a lot of difference in the distance Yellow-browed and Hume's come, but southern origin Hume's is typically a month or two later than Y-brows. Ditto e.g. Brown (NE origin, typically Sept-Oct) and Isabelline Shrikes (SE origin, typically Oct-Nov). Then there's also differences in ecology and migration strategy: Radde's and Dusky come the same distance from the same latitude, but Radde's are usually a few weeks earlier than Duskies.

[Alex Lees]

Not well at all! There's also a strong latitude-of-origin component, with southerly species (from where the summer lasts later) moving later than more northerly origin species: not a lot of difference in the distance Yellow-browed and Hume's come, but southern origin Hume's is typically a month or two later than Y-brows. Ditto e.g. Brown (NE origin, typically Sept-Oct) and Isabelline Shrikes (SE origin, typically Oct-Nov). Then there's also differences in ecology and migration strategy: Radde's and Dusky come the same distance from the same latitude, but Radde's are usually a few weeks earlier than Duskies.

Agreed, that southern species arrive later but then they also have further to travel, there are tens of thousands of YBWs breeding in European Russia (in the Polar Urals), travelling west through Scandinavia these individuals have a much smaller distance to travel than Hume's, despite breeding west to a similar longitude. We are getting a little off the point, it is a sweeping generalisation but the pattern broadly holds. Greenish (and Arctic) are the most proximate breeders and are the first to arrive here in the UK and this Cornish Greenish triggers alarm bells as it is exceptionally late and may therefore not be of European or near-European origin.

Alex

[Alex Lees]

There is very little published on the variation and 'real' differencies in the Greenish Warbler populations and although Lars Svensson has studied all of those labelled in the trays at Tring Museum and elsewhere, he has not made any examinations of them in the field.

If you take the labels on the Tring Museum specimens to be accurate, then trochiloides which occurs in the central and east Himalayas and in central China is markedly darker green on the upperparts and quite greyish-white below and has a shorter wing length when compared with viridanus (the western form, breeding from Finland and Poland east through western Siberia to the Yenesei River, south through NW Mongolia to northern Afghanistan and the NW Himalayas, the Tian Shan mountains and the west Pamir range).

In the western Himalayas, the form ludlowi is described, this form being somewhat intermediate between the two forms above, again being a shorter distance migrant bearing a shorter wing projection, paler green above and quite olive-grey around the underparts.

There is also a much more restricted form obscuratus, occurring to the north of the nominate form in central China. Again, quite deep green on the upperparts with a very contrasting head pattern, the supercilia being notably white in many individuals.

Hi Lee

I don't think we need to involve some of the obscure taxa within 'the ring' but it would be pertinent to explore variation within viridans. I've appended the DB paper (cheers Harry) if anyone is interested....

Alex

[Johnny X]

Many thanks for posting the paper, Alex. A fascinating read.

[RoyHargreaves]

Hi Brian,

Just found this thread on here. For the record of course I don't mind you quoting me. Especially in such a complimentary context.

Cheers

Roy

[GMK]

I would like to see some ringing studies, a wide selection of images showing the variation in underparts and recordings made of Bright Green Warblers wintering in Goa and Sri Lanka ande elsewhere within their distribution and I would also like to see further studies made of the dull individuals in the Uludag Mountains region of western Turkey.


Although this thread is ancient history, I thought it worthwhile to make the following points. It seems to be exceptionally poorly appreciated outside those who have really spent field time in Turkey (rather than dashing round the standard sites once or even many times) or have at least read Kirwan et al. (2008, The birds of Turkey), that there is a population of Bright-green Warblers in western Turkey, much less their actual distribution and characters. And much of what was said on this thread about these birds was pure invention. That population isn't confined to beech or any other deciduous woodland, it occurs in just the same range of habitats as birds further east in the Pontic Mountains. The late Simon Albrecht first published on this population. Simon was something of a hero to me when I first commenced working in Turkey. However, it needs to be said (as indeed I already did in the just-cited work) that Albrecht wrote incorrectly, albeit honestly, about his experiences. Put simply, the birds in western Turkey are no duller than those further east, which latter Albrecht had never encountered in the field. He was fooled, in part by standard field guide images at that time (no Collins Bird Guide in those days), like that in Heinzel, Fitter & Parslow, which showed "incredibly" (dare I even say unrealistically) bright birds. Birds in western Turkey sound and look no different to those in the eastern Pontics. The map in Kirwan marks two main populations, and a third, even further west on Uludag, the latter quite possibly marginally isolated. The two main populations are in all probability contiguous, the gap between them on the map reflecting an observational lacuna, not (I am sure) a real lack of P. nitidus in the central Black Sea Coastlands.

I hope I might be forgiven for only now addressing these old and perhaps already long-forgotten matters.