Shearwater sp.

[macrourus]

Hi Folk,

what do you think about this Shearwater sp. photographed recently at pelagie islands by a birder ?

IMO there are 2 possible ex: 1) its a melanistic morph/plumage of Cory's (Scopoli) as already reported in DB some issues ag?.... 2) its an oiled Scopoli's .... though the plumage look so neat and natural...
What annoy me its the bill structure and colour that appear also dark and slender than should be...almost like a Cape Verde Sh. where sooty plumages are commoner !
However the bill could itself also oiled and appear slender by the darker colour than usual and also by back light photo effect...

Idea?

Andrea
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[Dipper]

It looks like a Sooty Shearwater to me!:smile:

[Colin Key]

Hello Andrea,

With a bit of adjustment to this image I would agree with Dipper that this looks good for Sooty Shearwater:


http://s118.photobucket.com/albums/o100/Passarinhos/Shearwater.jpg

Regards,

Colin :smile:

[Martin Scott]

That is no Sooty, and looks like a slender member of the wider Corys complex

I guess there are no other pictures?

Has Cape Verde been reported from the Med before?

MSS

[macrourus]

Obviously not a Sooty otherwise I wouldn't be worried about and asked you...

Scopoli's was the main and 1st option springed to my mind,
Cape Verde I've seen a higly candidate for Cape Verde in Sicily several years ag?...of course never submitted nor myself accepted without good photos...and just one of those sea birds you put into the forgettable moments :-(

As long as I know no Cape Verde records into Mediterranean...

therefore my preferred otpion is about a melanistic or an olied Scopoli's....but this would not fully erxplain why wings, head, neck, "hand", tail and bill all looks slender and longer ....

I would be happy to have opinions form the sea watcher freks such as Killian M., or Bob Flood and friends....

Andrea
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[Colin Key]

Obviously not a Sooty ......
Andrea


Can you give reasons for this opinion on the basis of a very poor photograph?

Colin

[macrourus]

I'm sorry Colin,

you're right I was too in an hurry as being back home and on a pc after 1 month birding abroad and therefore having something like 750 mails to reply and to read and something like 60 photos to comments ....

I thpought was not a Sooty because mantle too pale, and paler than wing coverts, while usually its the opposite... but I did not considered a fresh juvenile which I never seen close and a possible strong light effect as was at lampedusa the days the bird has been seen... LAso, I though to may detect a hint of Pale U on uppertail coverts, typical of cory's complex and similar but not on Sooty...but this may well be an artefact...
therefore I wait iedeas form more expert sea watcher (I spent years sea watching but far more-mya be too much- on raptor watching :cry:
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[birdboybowley]

That's not a poor photo at all! It's not a Sooty on build alone - the wings are too wide for one thing. Agree it looks more like a Cory's-type

[macrourus]

and of course the jiiz and the feeling its wronmg to me for Sooty... and often i rely very much on feelings :beer:
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[Colin Key]

That's not a poor photo at all!

Yes it is, but my enhancement has improved it (but that does not mean I have made the features of the bird any clearer!!).

The plumage is perfect for Sooty and the bill is too long and slender, and too dark, for a Cory's.

Colin

[forktail]

FIRST TWO CASES OF MELANISM IN
CORY’S SHEARWATER CALONECTRIS DIOMEDEA

http://www.marineornithology.org/PDF/33_1/33_1_19-22b.pdf

It has a couple of pics of the birds, not very helpful, but an interesting article nonetheless. Bill colour was said to be unaffected. I had no idea melanism was so rare in the family.

[appleton.dave]

The plumage is perfect for Sooty

Colin, the plumage is perfectly wrong for Sooty. Since when have Sooty Shearwaters shown broad pale fringes to the scapulars and mantle/back feathers? Admittedly I've only seen a few hundred Sooty Shearwaters but I've never seen one looking anything like this. Can you point me to a single photo of a Sooty Shearwater that shows such a contrasting pale mantle area and broad pale fringes?

The (original) photo is perfectly adequate to rule out Sooty Shearwater without any question, on both plumage and structure.


the bill is too long and slender, and too dark, for a Cory's.

Hence one reason to consider Cape Verde Shearwater which, I understand, has a darker and more slender bill than Cory's. Personally I couldn't be confident in identifying it as such from this photo but it seems a very reasonable proposition.


Yes it is, but my enhancement has improved it

Lightening photos can be helpful but does not always represent "enhancement" as it can falsify features. For example dark shapes against a pale background may appear artificially narrow even without "enhancement" and especially so when the photo is lightened.


IMO there are 2 possible ex: 1) its a melanistic morph/plumage of Cory's (Scopoli) as already reported in DB some issues agò.... 2) its an oiled Scopoli's .... though the plumage look so neat and natural...

I'd caution against using the "neat and natural" appearance (at least on this quality of photo) to rule out pollutants - some polluted birds can appear very like melanistic birds, at least without the views that enable you to see individual feather condition. However... I suspect you're right and it seems probable that it is indeed a melanistic Cory's-complex shearwater. I hope someone better than me can throw some light on which one.

[Brian S]

An odd, dark Scopoli's for me - it has a more slender bill than I would expect to see on a Cory's.

The scaling on the mantle and scapulars (and greter coverts) are also a little reminiscent of Great, but the jizz seems that of a Calonectris species. It is either melanistic or has dirty plumage.

Brian S

[Chris Sloan]

I am a regular leader for Brian Patteson off of North Carolina, so I have seen many thousands of Cory's and a decent number of likely Scopoli's Shearwaters. I've also seen hundreds of thousands of Sooty Shearwaters both in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.

For reasons previously stated, this is most definitely not a Sooty. What it is, though, is probably not determinable from this photo. My first reaction was Cape Verde. I have not seen that taxon, but it appears to show the more slender build and darker bill relative to the larger Calonectris that I would expect to see in Cape Verde, and for that same reason it looks a little "off" for larger Calonectris.

Seems wrong shapewise for Greater also, although I haven't yet been able to put into words why I feel that way.

But, going back to what I said earlier, this is one of those Bigfoot kinds of photos where we can debate all day, but without observer notes or other photos, I don't think it's much more than a sporting argument.

[AndyB]

Perhaps, may go some way to explaining this contentious bird off Malta this summer:
http://surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5504

[Brian S]

This link http://www.shearwater.nl/seabird-osteology/Tubenoses/shearwaters%20calonectris_copy(1).htm has an excellent series of images comparing the size and proportions of the bills of diomedea, borealis and edwardsii.

Diomedea has a bill/head length of 108.9mm (culmen 53.4mm) ; borealis, 118.6mm (culmen 58.1mm); edwardsii is much smaller at 90.2mm (with a culmen of 41.7mm). The bill of Balearic Shearwater is given in BWP as 36-42mm, and edwardsii in BWP as 41-46mm, so edwardsii is small.

Having had experience of many Scopoli's (diomedea), I would still plump for that....at the moment....

Tim's (Forktail) link above is surely spot on.

Brian S

[Steve Lister]

Sorry Colin but I can't see where you get Sooty from at all.
Does the tail show a wedge effect?

Steve

[macrourus]

For a Summary:

I've seen probably something like several millions Scopoli's (much less Cory's though)... as its a rather common bird in Italy. When our birding team (with coeligena Ottavio Janni, Micky Vigan? et al) MISC. (that would be "almost" traslated as Islander Sickness at the last cronical stage) go to pelagie islands, where the photo has been taken, any sea watching day we may see up to 10.000 yelkouans and 5-20.000 scopoli's (9000 to 15000 pairs of scopoli's breeding, and 2000 to 4500 pairs yelks).
When I got this photo I suddenly thought this must be a melanistic or oiled Scopoli's on feeling of the bird, jizz, wing shape etc.
However, looking at bill structure and tail shape, and small head I was then confused... enlarging the bill I can still again and again see its slimm and darkish ...more than usual Scopoli's. This taxon (whatever its a sp or a ssp.) has indeed a slender bill than Cory's but though in many cases only slightly and mostly appreciable on the hands with measurements (and it is even quite variable depending on populations, with pelagie birds showing a stronger and bigger bill - there are some papers on that)...

So that why I got confused...

the tail shape : I think should be an artefact of the photo or even the feet projection ? I can't be sure and judge ...

My last and ONLY option remain a dark scopoli's (whenever truely melanistic or oiled as several sea birds have seen)... but I would be happy to have an explanation very convincing about the bill shape by sea birds experts :eek:
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[macrourus]

I've now be studing again the photo...may be the bill look so slim because its oiled and the paler cutting edge is not well demarked by the long distance photo ...

??


check for bill structure within mediterranean for ex,.

Massa B., Lo Valvo M., 1986. Biometrical and biological considerations on the Cory's shearwater Calonectris diomedea. In: Mediterranean Marine Avifaune (Medmaravis e Monbailliu red.), Springer Verlag, pp. 293-313
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[Brian S]

Andreas

I think the apparently narrow depth of the bill is an artefact of light. Do you feel that the nostril tubes might look too prominent for edwardsii?

Brian S

[Colin Key]

My attempt to "enhance" (and I use the phrase with trepidation) was really to try and show that the plumage was not "oiled or stained" (as Andreas originally thought) - I think I over-lightened the image (as I more or less admitted in my last post).

I have been looking at at a lot of shearwaters recently and my opinion was based on apparent size and structure, especially the bill.

With all due respect to Andreas, this is not a good image and I think that Chris has it "on the nail" with: "QBut, going back to what I said earlier, this is one of those Bigfoot kinds of photos where we can debate all day, but without observer notes or other photos, I don't think it's much more than a sporting argument".

I did not see the bird, so I cannot be definitive, but when we get to the point of saying that the slenderness of the bill is due to an artifact of light then we are in muddy waters.

The long, slender bill and obviously wedged tail make this a Sooty for me (but the bird has flown on and without better images or description we will never know :err:).

Colin :smile:

[macrourus]

I deleted for a mystakes my previous post while tring to edit it... however, I was suggesting to study a long time ag? paper on Cape verde Sh. (Birding World 10-6) to check about bill structure, neck and head structure, tail shape and darkness of colour... it is an interesting matter as not well and widely threated in modern litterature... even in one of the very few perfect book ever done Petrel night and day (the other one being the Sound Approach vol. 1, and Dick Forsman's raptors guide!) there is not an in depht discussion about plumage(s) but for the great plates of KM...
in this book, looking at plate pp. 79 you'll see how some birds do indeed appears duller and more "sooty"... with an almost black bill (check the in front bird)... I do not know whenever its just a dirty bill or not and why the bird looks so dark...but my whole discussion here and in birdforum was due because I would have been happiy to learn more about a species I can't find very much about... Having seen something like 10 millions Scopoli's but none true Cape V.

However, I was never anything more than in favour of a Scopoli's (as you may in fact read in my 1st post) .... even if I was confused and wondering about why such a dark looking plumage and bill shape-colour ... Cape Verde was reported just to say how confusing was the pictures (not included into the two favoured options, only reported to say how may look confusing similar and therefore not so stright and easy sea watching stuff!)

But Killian M replied on birdforum reporting its a photo effect, therefore that's it for me...


All in all, always better to discuss and start to go deeper on as we all may learn from those kind of things, studing therefore more and more...

ciao

thanks


Andrea
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[macrourus]

Hi guys,

just to "joke" taking part to a mysteri photos quiz have a look at

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=156447


and then we may have an interesting discuss about bill shape and structure, underwing pattern, wing shape, bird structure etc. in Cory's Sh. complex...that was after all why we discussed here alot about what we all thought was a Cory's /Scopoli's ...even if proved not to be oiled or dark plumaged as I initially thought...!!

I think the matter has been made a bit too stright and easy...

check some papers as Hoell & patteson, Alula 1-2008 or Lo Valvo & Massa several papers on Scopoli's - Cory's...

thanks and ciao
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[macrourus]

Compare this bill from Azores
http://www.pbase.com/upupa/image/119213200
and these from the gorgeous photgallery of our best photobirder Daniele Occhiato

http://www.pbase.com/dophoto/image/119079769

http://www.pbase.com/dophoto/image/119079768


with this photo of Scopoli's from Linosa.... (I've in the laptop not here several tens more in the hand for bill structure)



You may see how the Linosa bird seems to show a higher and heavier bill, shorter form the tubes to the ips but yet stronger and heavier (higher)...

Same is for most Scopoli's in Linosa, of course mainly males

ciao
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[marklhawkes]

The long, slender bill and obviously wedged tail make this a Sooty for me (but the bird has flown on and without better images or description we will never know :err:).

Colin :smile:

Colin, with the up-most respect, this is not a Sooty Shearwater (regardless of whether it is considered a good photo or not), there is enough visible here to see eliminate this species. The structure alone is enough. Have you seen many Sooty Shearwaters?

I think if it was just a Sooty Shearwater, Andreas would not be posting the photo on here for opinions (especially given his good experience with other shearwater species, which I guess will have included many Sooty's).

[macrourus]

yes many sooty's and many sea birds...but evidently not too much knowledges on photographic effects and exposure (being a lazy loosy photographer, mostly digiscoper) as finally the bird has been ID as a Scopoli's (as I thought but mainly on breeding site biasis)
...but and not melanistic or oiled, rather wrongly exposed ...
in any case, I guess a good excuse to discuss about the taxa Cory's and Scopoli's ...as I think we should learn more about... for ex. on bill structure, underwing pattern etc.

When we (the birding team MISC) will finish our photo collection of Scopoli's we will do a nice paper in British Birds about that matter

Thanks
A
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