ID of 'Rufous' Turtle Dove in Aberdeenshire

[hannujannes]

Hi,


Images published on UK Stop Press of a Rufous Turtle Dove at Aberdeenshire on 14th November show a nice juvenile ( with some adult wing coverts) 'normal' (European) Turtle Dove.

Cheers,

Hannu Jännes

[Paul French]

The coverts and tertials on adult meena do seem to be closer to Turtle Dove than in orientalis, which would explain why they look very close to Turtle Dove on this bird. http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?p=3&action=searchresult&Bird_ID=710&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

The grey underwings of the Aberdeen bird are a good feature of Oriental aren't they?


Not easy though.

[Paul French]

Actually, i'm getting a bit more worried now! Are those undertail coverts white, or am i seeing things?

[forktail]

The coverts and tertials on adult meena do seem to be closer to Turtle Dove than in orientalis, which would explain why they look very close to Turtle Dove on this bird. http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?p=3&action=searchresult&Bird_ID=710&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

The grey underwings of the Aberdeen bird are a good feature of Oriental aren't they?


Not easy though.


Hi Paul

I don't think the underwing is a good feature, I think it's the same in meena and turtur (but darker in orientalis) and both can have white undertail although meena is usually darker. I haven't seen meena and they can by all accounts be very tricky being rather small. Some of the feather centres are not as dark (or large) as you might like either.

here's an interesting one from Spain http://www.rarebirdspain.net/arbsi029.htm

F.

[Paul French]

Hi Tim

I've never seen meena, but they certainly look as though they could be very tricky http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?p=24&action=searchresult&Bird_ID=710&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

There was also a very tricky bird on Shetland recently that was a late turtur, very similar to that Spanish bird. Just shows how difficult they can be. Rapidly reading around the subject now, and agree with you on underwings.

It could be a long night, and be nice to see how this plays out!

[grahamcatley]

some comparative pics taken 29.9.2004 Lincs

[forktail]

There appears to be a small reddish bare patch around the eye (A Webb's photos, where nape also looks paler than you might expect?) which according to Beaman and Madge, and Shirhai Macmillan guide, points towards turtur?

Paul (on the BF thread) has also pointed to what appears to be a pale primary covert tip visible on the birds left raised wing in A Webb's photo that is diagnostic in turtur. Seems to be nailed now...

[Paul French]

I've just spoken to Tony Blunden who had a similar bird on the Lizard last year, and he got the following ID feature from Killian Mullarney. The primary coverts seem to be the diagnostic feature to see. Turtur has a wide buffy tip to the primary coverts that is easily noted (if you can see the PC!) .
See http://surfbirds.com/forum/showpost....77&postcount=6 and on the second main image in http://www.rarebirdspain.net/arbsi029.htm . Meena has a much thinner tip, in fact its almost non-existent. http://orientalbirdimages.org/search...ID=&pagesize=1 and http://orientalbirdimages.org/search...ID=&pagesize=1

If there are any photos showing this, that should be the clincher. I think you can just about see in Andy Webb;s image of the raised wings the wide buffy tip to one of the PC. More photos will be needed to be sure though.

[RoyHargreaves]

My very limited experience of immature meena was the Orkney bird in 2002. Although meena is smaller than orientalis the 2002 bird was still heavier than turtur and built more like a Stock Dove in flight - this I noted at the time. In fact my first sighting of the bird was in the gloom of dawn and in silhouette and I ticked it at that point on shape alone - based on orientalis I had seen before in China. As Hannu pointed out the bird has a few adult wing-coverts and also scapulars and the pointed, spiky shape of the black centres really is not good for meena at all. Looking at OBI is all very well but some of the birds there are certainly incorrectly aged and possibly ascribed to the wrong sub-species too. I am trying to see pro-meena features and can't, but that might be lack of experince on my part. Certainly doesn't smack me between the eyes like the 2002 bird did.

[stenura]

I fully agree with Hannu that the images show a rather average European Turtledove. Some pointers are the pattern/colour of coverts and tertials, shape of bare skin at eye, thin and all dark bill and shape of primary projection. Additional clues could be the pattern of the primary coverts and the t6 (not visable in these images).

Cheers
/Magnus

[hannujannes]

Forget my comments in my earlier message today re. the Spanish bird. It is all about the same bird (not two different birds as I first thought!!!), which was actually identified as turtur (not meena as I first thought!). Looks still very interesting showing some very good meena features!


Hannu