Citrine?

[JanJ]

Hi all.

You might have seen this heavily debatted Motacilla from Sweden (still present)? Suggestions are either, an unusuall looking Citrine (as you can see), or a hybrid or even a Yellow. The head pattern - with non pale surroundings to the earcoverts as well as the huge pale forehead patch, and not the least, clear pale bill base confuses.
A lot of birders has offered their thought on this peculiar Motacilla, one being Krister Mild, who suggested that the bird is not a Yellow Wagtail and apart from the yellowis bill base he thinks that it might well be a Citrine, the main problem being the bill base colour. Some 1cy Citrine do lack the pale surrounding to the ear coverts. The seemingly narrow wingbars for a Citrine might simply be due to wear.

Top birds:

http://www.pbase.com/tbernhardsson/pipits_larks_and_wagtails_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85vrx9gNasM

Any thoughts?

JanJ

[lou]

Hi all.

You might have seen this heavily debatted Motacilla from Sweden (still present)? Suggestions are either, an unusuall looking Citrine (as you can see), or a hybrid or even a Yellow. The head pattern - with non pale surroundings to the earcoverts as well as the huge pale forehead patch, and not the least, clear pale bill base confuses.
A lot of birders has offered their thought on this peculiar Motacilla, one being Krister Mild, who suggested that the bird is not a Yellow Wagtail and apart from the yellowis bill base he thinks that it might well be a Citrine, the main problem being the bill base colour. Some 1cy Citrine do lack the pale surrounding to the ear coverts. The seemingly narrow wingbars for a Citrine might simply be due to wear.

Top birds:

http://www.pbase.com/tbernhardsson/pipits_larks_and_wagtails_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85vrx9gNasM

Any thoughts?

JanJ

since the bird has stayed so long i'm sure people have heard its call. how did that sound? i think an experienced birder would be able to differenciate yellow from citrine on call alone. even the more harsh sounding feldegg and cinereocapilla don't sound as harsh and short as citrine's "tsrrrrp"

[stenura]

The bird has a typical Citrine call, but the main subject for discussion has been the far eastern subspecies of Yellow Wagtail, wich makes the use of the call far more difficult.

Regards
/Magnus (pro Citrine)

[macrourus]

I think eastern forms of YW look different in general, also the bill shape look different etc.

I have seen few Citrine with pale bill base so it could happen, but if we add pale bill + laching of sorrounding supericilium (that could be almost like ?n this bird in few Citrine) + dark lores and not pale + kind of greenish-brownish pale tinge or hue to mantle + light looking appearance...

could we deal with a bird with 1 or 2 odd characters among the natural variability, but could we explain a pure bird with 5 of them...

I think it could be an hybrid, but in such cases we could ONLY guess and need DNA to be sure ! IMO I think I'm not able to put a name on this bird...
However, does not look to be a 100% sure Citrine....neither a perfect eastern YW....

Andrea

PS. just fantastic photos !
________
HotPleasure (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/HotPleasure)

[adriaens]

I will gladly bow to the opinion of K. Mild or those of many Scandinavian birders indeed, but in my personal experience with Citrine Wagtails I have always had the impression of a rather long-legged, almost wader-like bird (with a little imagination...), and I don't really get this from this individual. Also, shouldn't the flanks be a bit more extensively grey ?
Like Andrea, I feel that more than just one or two characters are off for Citrine Wag.

[JanJ]

The bird has a typical Citrine call, but the main subject for discussion has been the far eastern subspecies of Yellow Wagtail, wich makes the use of the call far more difficult.

Regards
/Magnus (pro Citrine)

Thanks Magnus for reminding of call and eastern yellow - which I forgott to mention.

JanJ

[CAU]

Here are some Yellow Wagtails from Oman:
http://www.pbase.com/image/93454649
http://www.pbase.com/image/93454650
http://www.flickr.com/photos/giselaglb/2677682516/
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=Jniemi1185373088&lang=eng

Apart from the moulted greenish feathers on the back and the pale base to the lower mandible, they look quite Citrine Wagtail-like, most even show a white band encircling the ear-coverts. However, none look quite as Citrine Wagtail-like as the Swedish bird. The late autumn birds also have very worn wing coverts, making the wing bars look much thinner than on the Swedish bird.

I must say I can't see any greenish tones on the mantle of the Swedish bird, only some slight brownish, which I reckon still fit Citrine Wagtail. Citrine Wagtails also quite often have even darker lores than the Swedish bird, so I'd say that the colouration of the lores isn't a big problem, but I still share the concern about safely identifying the bird...

Here are two apparent Citrine Wagtails from Oman that seem to have a pale base to the lower mandible (and also rather narrow wing bars due to wear):
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=komi1111484526&lang=eng
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=linto1112192700&lang=eng

[gerdwichers8]

The bird has a typical Citrine call, but the main subject for discussion has been the far eastern subspecies of Yellow Wagtail, wich makes the use of the call far more difficult.

Regards
/Magnus (pro Citrine)

This autumn we had a wagtailridle to solve sort like this in the Netherlands and only back home I could pay more attention to its plumage since I was recording it's call.
Plumagewise it was more recalling a Yellow Wagtail sp. even though it showed some strong Citrine features, but it's call was quiet like a Citrine, preferably more like this than the near eastern Wagtail species (e.g feldegg). Suggestions were made it could be a far Eastern Wagtail instead. This solution seemed plausible an option until at a late moment the lost bird returned to it's initial place calling loud and clear just like a western Yellow Wagtail would! (combined with the 'Citrine' type call). For me this was too heavy to resist a definite hybrid.

In your case here, I don't know how a bird which even looks like a Citrine the more, would not adopt any aberrancy in its call and sound 'pure', but why could it just not genetically be mixed up, parallel to that?

[JanJ]

No greenish feathers on the upperparts was observed on the swedish Motacilla.
As mentioned by CAU a slight brownish hue was seen, and that would be alright for a Citrine.

http://www.pbase.com/grefven/image/119365957

http://www.pbase.com/grefven/image/119365853

JanJ

[macrourus]

Sorry I have a poor monitor quite old therefore should be a monitor effect the greenish I see.... brownihs is not at all a problem in citrine as any feather abraded and sun-bleached could turn brownish tinged (even the bright bluish mantle feathers of let say Lanner or Peregrine could show browinish tinge once bleached !)...

for the pale bill base : the bird posted by CAU show indeed an hint of pale, not as much as the swedish one but yet as I reported citreola may show a palish cutting edge or bill base (these are different...cutting edge versus bill base)....

for the lores: they could LOOK darkish in many Citrine depending on head position...any bird with pale lores could show darkish lores or darkish base depending on head position, juts check Richard's and Blyth's pipits, several Phyllos etc. when they turn the head it may look daker lores... because the individual feather base its greish indeed... (vicervers, some darkish fetahre sometimes have white base and could appear paler when you see more the base than the tip).... I have no direct experience with darker lores citreola that are indeed truely dark, I mean the whole featehers there...
in any case, in Eastern forms of YW the lores are the DARKEST area of the head usually, showing up very obviously ! so not like swedish bird

In any case, IMo yet the bird does have the feeling, the jizz of a citrine as Peter reported and I also in first post.... its seems to be very light and short legged...but this is ONLY an impression from photos and by the years I learned how I can easely mis-leaded in photos and be wrong ! Also birds I photographed and found, in photos they rather look quite different often!!!

Ciao

Andrea C
________
Laguna Beach Resort Jomtien (http://pattayaluxurycondos.com)

[LeeEvans]

The call notes of Eastern Yellow and Citrine Wagtails are very similar to my ear and I struggle to hear the differences in the field. Both have a particularly long drawn out somewhat buzzing quality call and quite separable from the typical call of Western Yellow Wagtail.

Citrine Wagtail in all reality is best considered as two species (possibly three) - Western (Citreola) and Black-backed Citrine (Calcarata) - and are readily separable on a number of diagnosable characters. Likewise, a similar correlation exists with the Eastern Yellow Wagtails, but most importantly, they differ structurally from the western clades in their longer hindclaws.

The striking bird in these superb images suggests to me a hybrid or intergrade, perhaps involving Citrine and Eastern Yellow Wagtail. As others especially Peter Adriaens have commented, there are several characteristics that simply do not shout 'pure' Citrine Wagtail and as we are all so constantly reminded, intergradation between wagtail populations may not be that unusual. There are many examples of White x Pied Wagtail pairings and endless numbers of Western Yellow with others so perhaps attempting to pigeonhole birds like this to a specific id may be far too challenging.