Striking Herring Gull

[Sean Nixon]

I've posted 2 shots on the ID page of a Herring gull taken y'day at Walberswick, Suffolk.

I was struck by not only its size, but by the intense, heavy streaking on the head and neck and by the solid dark tail bar. The outer greater coverts bar is also quite solid looking.

I can't quite make it into a Smiths, but any thoughts on the bird would be appreciated.

Sean Nixon

[JanJ]

http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20091130042255.jpg

http://www.surfbirds.com/media/gallery_photos/20091130042237.jpg

Rather delicat problematics - if I say that this looks like an argentatus/argenteus - someone will come along saying that it could well be a smithsonianus or the other way around. :wink:

Is it a 2nd winter (2cy) or 3rd winter (3cy). Not so easy to age but the inner primaries seems to show some brownish wash, except to innermost two - together with lack of a mirror on p10 and obvious white primarytips might suggest a 2cy bird.

Some 2nd winter (3cy) argentatus/argenteus:

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/2ndW_HGs_2009_Scotland.html

http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4786

I think Peter would have some thinking here.

JanJ

[BirdNEast]

For the sake of argument if this was smithsonianus and was a 3rd-winter would a number of the characteristics not then fit.

Bill pattern, more advanced than typical argentatus/smithsonianus 2nd-winter with yellowish tip and dark markings.
Eye very pale surely for 2nd-winter?
Lack of mirror on P10 and white tips might not be an issue if it was smithsonianus?
Lack of any dark spotting on rump might also point to 3rd rather than 2nd-winter?
Tail band looks very solid rather than broken, with pale edges and tips. Much more common in smithsonianus than argentatus
Structurally the bird also has some good features for smithsonianus
head peaking far back on the crown, bill parallel-edged with slight gonys angle.
Just some thoughts.

[adriaens]

Looking at the remiges, the bird is clearly a 3rd winter: the inner primaries and several secondaries are already adult-like. Even at rest, the broad white tips of the secondaries are obvious.

In the first photo I looked at (bird standing on a post), it did not strike me as anything out of the ordinary. The strong vermiculations on the greater coverts and tertials are much more typical of European birds. Head and neck look a bit streaked, which again is better for a European bird, but might equally fit smithsonanius.
However, in the flightshot, the tail does look unusual. The black pattern is rather extensive, and surprisingly solid (no vermiculations). I must admit that, so far, I have not seen a 3rd-cycle European Herring Gull with this exact tail pattern. Then again, the pattern of the secondaries looks off; in 3rd-cycle smithsonianus, the secondaries are usually either all dark brown (as in 2nd-cycle), entirely adult-like, or (blue-)grey with distinct blackish marks (to some extent comparable to some 2nd-cycle Ring-billed Gulls). Here, they are grey with brown marks, a pattern commonly seen in European birds.

So... While the tail pattern looks quite good for smithsonianus, it is a pity that it is not further supported by other plumage features. I suppose it may be only a matter of time before a tail like this is documented in a definite (e.g. colour-ringed) European HG ?
For those interested, I have begun to collect photographs of 3rd-cycle European Herring Gulls showing some features of smiths. Have a look at http://picasaweb.google.com/Zorkyyy/3rdCycleHerringGull , in particular at bird 8, which I think looks quite similar to the Suffolk individual.

[JanJ]

I completely agree with Peter on all accounts. Tail pattern remain the most interesting feature on this Herring. However, variation still makes it a challenge to correctly identify AH from EHG - especially in these ages.

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=230711&d=1259656034

JanJ

[Sean Nixon]

Thanks for all the comments - very helpful.

Sean

[Brian S]

This gull was still present this afternoon - def. 3rd-winter. It is a bulky bird, and is quite vocal, with a rather ho.... long-call, starting with the head bowed (looking at its feet), then lifting it skyward with the wings partially open.

The underwings are white with few dark marks on the lesser and marginal underwing coverts.

Brian S

[MichaelF]

Striking Herring GullWhat's it on strike for? More pay?

:ohdear:

[John Bell]

What's it on strike for? More pay?

:ohdear:


Apologies for off-topic but as a reminder to all that if you are logged in, you can use the User Control Panel to hide the posts of certain individuals. Simply add them to your 'ignire list'. HTH

John

[Colin Key]

Simply add them to your 'ignire list'. HTH

John

Can't find the "ignire list" ?

Colin :biggrin:

[Johnny X]

Top advice from John there!:

'This message is hidden because John Bell is on your ignore list.'

[adriaens]

For those interested, I have begun to collect photographs of 3rd-cycle European Herring Gulls showing some features of smiths. Have a look at http://picasaweb.google.com/Zorkyyy/3rdCycleHerringGull .
Have added a few birds with mainly dark tail to the page. See birds 23, 24 and 26.

[JanJ]

Thanks for that Peter, a good reference set!
Further sets of smithsonianus showing several features in a splendid way!

http://www.htc.net/~kdan/gull2.htm

JanJ

[Brian S]

An excellent series of images, and as Peter has pointed out, note the black secondary band in the 2nd cycle birds - different to the Southwold bird which started the thread off.

Brian S

[adriaens]

Wait a minute -- is everyone with me ?
My web page (http://picasaweb.google.com/Zorkyyy/3rdCycleHerringGull) shows only European Herring Gulls (3rd cycle). All photographed in Belgium.
The pattern of the secondaries is mainly a feature in 3rd cycle, not 2nd.
The Southwold bird should be a 3rd cycle, not 2nd.

[Brian S]

Aaah yes....I tend not to use the term 'cycle', so have confused myself.

Brian S

[JanJ]

Hmm...my posting the American Gull link might have added to the confusion? Sean Nixon's gull are as Peter already has mentioned - a 3rd cycle, and I posted "some" A. Herring Gulls for showing pattern of 1st, 2nd & 3rd cycles types, maybe not so rightfully in this thread. As Peter mentioned - all his 3rd cycle (3rd winter, 2cy or 3cy depending on date, which is mentioned on his site) are as we understand already, E. Herring Gulls taken in Belgium.
The confusion over the cycle terminology is quite understandible but given time to adjust it is a better system.

JanJ

[Brian S]

Is the term 'cycle' a better system? I know it may well help as there are southern and northern hemisphere issues.

So what is a 'cycle'? To quote Howell and Dunn, 'In the Humphrey-Parkes system a bird can have no more, and no fewer, plumages than it has molts. For two molts to occur, some feathers must be replaced twice in a plumage cycle. A plumage cycle runs from a given plumage or molt to the next occurence of the same plumage or molt.'.....'The first plumage cycle starts with the juvenal (sic) plumage, the second with with the initiation of the second pre-basic molt (which often corresponds to the start of primary molt).' So any body moult is discounted?

In my old ('northern hemispherocentric') terms, 'first cycle' encapsulates on LWHGs what I would describe as all of the following:
juvenile; first-winter (acquired through a variable post-juv head and body moult, perhaps some coverts and tertials - confusingly, fig.1 on p.32 of Howell and Dunn indicate a 'PJ' = prejuvenal moult in the first cycle) and first-summer (by which time some gulls, e.g. michahellis and cachinnans, may have moult from juv to 1w and even then some ad-like scapulars). I realise of course that the first primary moult (second cycle) has begun in this first-summer, but I know what I mean.

I apologise for this ramble, but I am not yet convinced that 'cycle' is a clearer system for ageing gulls. - I suppose I will get used to it....

Brian S

[MichaelF]

I certainly wouldn't trust or follow anyone (i.e., these Humphrey-Parkes characters) who can't spell juvenile properly.

[adriaens]

I am quite a fan of the cycle terminology, as I find it easy to use and also more correct: it has become clear that large gulls do not really acquire a distinct, separate "first-summer plumage", so why still use this term ? It is not that cycle terminology discounts any body moult; it only discounts the (non-existant) moult to first-summer plumage, and rightly so. The so-called first-summer plumage is little more than a combination of worn first-winter plumage and the onset of the complete moult to 2nd winter.

However, fitting the complex moult of Lesser Black-backed Gull (including fuscus) into cycles is tough...
I have tried to put the Howell terminology into my own words here:
http://www.gull-research.org/papers/thesis.pdf , pages 16-18.
Perhaps it makes things clearer ?

[Brian S]

Peter

A very impressive paper, and I have read through the section(s) on the cycle terminolgy. I am sure you are right, it is me that needs to change.

I suppose to some extent as long as I know (or think I know) what I am looking at, that is more important.....

Brian S