Gull Id in The Gambia?

[James P. Smith]

Greetings birders,

Simon Edwards and I are seeking opinion on this gull which Simon photographed in The Gambia in November 2007;
http://pioneerbirding.blogspot.com/2010/01/gambia-gull-november-17th-2007.html

The bird wasn't identified to species at the scene and only two images exist. It appears to be a 2cy bird with a fairly distinct tail pattern that could match Laughing Gull or Audouin's Gull - but which one? There may be enough information within the two images for our gull experts to nail the identification.

The question is worth exploring as Laughing Gull, whilst not unprecedented in The Gambia, would be a very good record.


Thanks in advance for any help with this one,


Best,


James.

[MichaelF]

Looks good for Laughing to me

[John Bell]

Hi James,

I noted you passed these pictures around another discussion group. I can't really add to what has been already said: it looks like a Laughing. However if we were to alter the tone of the grey 'adult' feathers that we can see it wouldn't be bad for Audouin's. To me the colour looks 'natural' and I'm guessing it is representative of what it looked like but maybe there is some reason for it coming out darker?

As has been said elsewhere the state of moult is interesting... could this be indicative of the southern subspecies? I imagine this subspecies is a decent candidate for vagrancy to Gambia.

I don't think it is a 'wacky' Med Gull either.

All very interesting!
John

[darrenjhughes]

The first photo seems to show the head markings for Laughing and that would have been my first gut feeling.Was it a case of whats that and get the camera out or did you get anything else on the bird

[JanJ]

I would agree that it looks like a Laughing Gull. However, if so, the pattern, extensive dark on seemingly all primary coverts, extensive dark on the tail, brownish flank markings (retained juvenile feathers?) and dark secondaries suggest a 1cy (1st cycle) rather than a 2nd winter (2nd cycle). The moult in the innner primaries - in both wings suggest an older bird, 2nd winter in this case but taken in Now. the primary moult score seems late for a 2nd winter Laughing which would normally have completed it´s primary moult by now together with the rest of it´s plumage. So what do we have here?

http://www.birdskorea.org/Birds/Identification/Photo_features/BK-PF-Laughing-Gull.shtml

JanJ

[James P. Smith]

Greetings all,

Thanks for all the comments thus far. Just to be clear, I didn't see the bird myself but I'm hosting the shots on Simon Edwards' behalf. I was intrigued when he sent them to me for an opinion and suggested to him that we seek a broader body of opinion before getting too excited.

From what I understand of Simon's comments, he had a gull of interest flying towards him and snapped off a couple of shots as it flew past, apparently never to be relocated. So this is definitely a case of trying to identify a bird within the limitations of a couple of images, rather questioning the identification of the bird claimed within the images.

So far, we've received a mixed bag of opinion - some favoring 2nd calender year Audouin's Gull but most, as is the case here, favoring 2nd calender year Laughing Gull. However, as Jan and others have pointed out, the moult sequence is puzzling for Laughing Gull in mid-Nov. I'm quite sure that Simon, along with many readers of this thread, typically wouldn't be troubled by a Laughing vs Audouin's Gull problem in the field.

Hopefully, we'll have more information to follow.

Thanks again,

James

[j j]

My impression is for Audouin's, which I have seen in numbers in Senegal in winter (i.e. it's much more likely in Gambia than Laughing).

See this photo from Turkey in spring: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjbirder/3509183246/

Different time of year and it's more advanced, but I think I see similar patterns and structure.

[Brian S]

Hi James

As you may know, I have been to the Gambia a number of times in Nov., and find that Audouin's is often in a strange state of moult. A small number of birds I have noted are the same as this photo and so my feeling is this is Audouin's.

The apparent darkness is easily taken out (see image attached), and then the bird looks more like this than Laughing - like Jan says, I find it hard to fit Laughing with this moult and plumage pattern in 1-w. I also think that the darker hindneck/hooded effect is not prominent enough to be Laughing.

Just my thoughts.

Brian S

[JanJ]

If not some sort of photographic effect, it´s interesting to note the barring on some of the feathers of the greater coverts in the Gambian gull, seen quite well in the image with the streached wing (best at 400%). That would put the perspective in another direction, since that is not in accordance with either of the two candidates mentioned for this gull, nor in 1st or second winter birds.
A simple idea of the two age classes in Audouin´s at approx. the same time of year can be seen here:

http://www.israbirding.com/reports/rarity_alerts/audouins_gull_mm/

http://www.israbirding.com/reports/rarity_alerts/audouins_gull_mm_07/

http://www.pbase.com/rb_stern/image/69166092

Note in Sterns image the moult score, p9 almost fully grown - p10 half way.

JanJ

[John Bell]

Hi Brian/JanJ et al

I agree completely about the moult being more likely that of a 2nd-W rather than a 1st-W although of course maybe a traumatic transatlantic crossing has induced (speculatively speaking).

I agree that if this is a 2nd-W then it looks more like an Audouin's than a Laughing (grey tone aside).

My first reaction to these pictures was 'surely this is going to be an Audouin's' given the brief sighting and how common Audouin's is in winter in The Gambia. I think I am going to return to that standpoint! I think if you remove the grey tone then the age and likelihood make this an Audouin's.

I went to Gambia and Senegal a couple of years ago and was surprised how common Audouin's was. I recorded c500 close to Banjul from the ferry crossing from Barra.

I was in Morroco a month or so ago and whilst waiting for Bald Ibises to come into drink near Tamri I photographed quite a few Audouin's that were passing. I'll have to dig them out and see what sort of moult is going on. If, as Brian says Audouin's do still show moult later than is often realised I think this is the final nail in the coffin of this bird.

Being honest I know very little about photographic effects but I'm guessing you feel these colours could be mis-representative Brian?

I recall speaking to a guide at Kotu Bridge (or rather being spoken to) who told me he'd seen a Franklin's Gull there a year or two previously. Interesting to know what would have been said had you labelled this picture taken in America, James! Still you didn't because that is not where it was taken and you have to look at the facts.

cheers,
John

[JanJ]

Me John, talking about photographic effect when it comes to the worn greater coverts.
Watching again at 400% I doubt that those bars are produced by a photographic effect.
What doe´s that tell us?

JanJ

[gawnbirding]

Here is my analysis. The bird is a 2nd winter gull undergoing a normal moult (ie: moulting out the inner primaries). The plumage features are surprisingly consistent with both a 2nd winter Audouin's Gull and a 2nd winter Laughing Gull. Given the usually obvious structural differences (especially bill structure) I would not have considered this a tough call, but such are the pitfalls of making an ID based on only 2 photos. While one of the photos suggests a Laughing gull-like head pattern I do not think that Audouin's can be ruled out, and, indeed that was my first impression. While grey tones are notoriously difficult to nail down, and highly subject to lighting effects, to my mind the bird is too pale to be a Laughing Gull which by November should be darker mantled. I am also concerned by the strong brown tones to the secondaries and relic feathers elsewhere which to me are suggestive of Audouin's. I have considerable experience with Laughing (at all times of year and in all plumages) but my knowledge of 2nd winter Audouin's is book-based only (I have seen 1st winter and adults only).

[James P. Smith]

Greetings all,
Thanks very much for the continued interest in Simon's gull from The Gambia;
http://pioneerbirding.blogspot.com/2010/01/gambia-gull-november-17th-2007.html

Just to follow-up on a couple of points raised in more recent posts. Naturally, we recognize that an Audouin's Gull seen badly in The Gambia is WAY more likely than a Laughing Gull seen badly in The Gambia. Personally, I only have about 8 weeks of field experience (all Nov through Jan) from The Gambia but have never found Audouin's particularly easy to come by. My total experience out there is probably no more than 10 birds, and I've only seen a handful elsewhere, so I don't know the bird well at all.

But...two things continue to strike me as odd, even contradictory, for this bird to be Audouin's. First the tail pattern is clearly closer to that of a first-winter/first-summer Audoiun's than it is to a 2nd winter. The tail band should be narrower than this for 2nd winter, unless we are talking about a bird that simply hasn't moulted its juvenile tail feathers? Moreover, looking at the tail more closely (see attachment) there appears to be a black line dividing the rump feathers. I'm not sure what this implies, and it may be artifact, but the pattern shares some resemblance to a first-cycle Laughing Gull recently posted on the North American Stop Press page which concerns a bird from Alaska.

The second odd feature is the apparent lack of dark centered greater coverts, which although worn, look rather uniform and grey. Again, I've included a cropped enlargement to show this. If we are talking about this bird moulting from first-summer to 2nd winter (which I think it is), shouldn't there be more evidence of brown/black centered greater coverts especially in combination with that tail pattern?


Just a couple more questions, rather than answers!


Best Wishes,


James

[John Bell]

Hi James et al,

Yeah for sure. Can we age the bird for definite? Maybe not but I would imagine this is more likely a 2nd-W than a 1st-W as it is in p-moult (late but still more likely to be 2nd-W). If it is a 2nd-W then for sure the tail band is quite prominent (at least that is what the textbook indicates) but given that the bird is in quite an odd state of moult already maybe this is not so unusual? My local Herring Gulls show a wide variation in tail pattern in 1st and 2nd-W. So will Audouin's (as I'm sure you could guess).

I think the odds on a darker than normal tail band are better than a 1st-W gull in moult in Nov. As is Audouin's vs Laughing in Gambia (as you acknowledge).

All good fun!
John

Greetings all,
Thanks very much for the continued interest in Simon's gull from The Gambia;
http://pioneerbirding.blogspot.com/2010/01/gambia-gull-november-17th-2007.html

Just to follow-up on a couple of points raised in more recent posts. Naturally, we recognize that an Audouin's Gull seen badly in The Gambia is WAY more likely than a Laughing Gull seen badly in The Gambia. Personally, I only have about 8 weeks of field experience (all Nov through Jan) from The Gambia but have never found Audouin's particularly easy to come by. My total experience out there is probably no more than 10 birds, and I've only seen a handful elsewhere, so I don't know the bird well at all.

But...two things continue to strike me as odd, even contradictory, for this bird to be Audouin's. First the tail pattern is clearly closer to that of a first-winter/first-summer Audoiun's than it is to a 2nd winter. The tail band should be narrower than this for 2nd winter, unless we are talking about a bird that simply hasn't moulted its juvenile tail feathers? Moreover, looking at the tail more closely (see attachment) there appears to be a black line dividing the rump feathers. I'm not sure what this implies, and it may be artifact, but the pattern shares some resemblance to a first-cycle Laughing Gull recently posted on the North American Stop Press page which concerns a bird from Alaska.

The second odd feature is the apparent lack of dark centered greater coverts, which although worn, look rather uniform and grey. Again, I've included a cropped enlargement to show this. If we are talking about this bird moulting from first-summer to 2nd winter (which I think it is), shouldn't there be more evidence of brown/black centered greater coverts especially in combination with that tail pattern?


Just a couple more questions, rather than answers!


Best Wishes,


James

[Brian S]

James

I am going to bump this and post this image of a bird in Feb http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_user_uploads/17461_UU_3595__MG_2115.jpg from Morocco.

What age do you think this is? Obviously a 2nd winter, but it looks like it has juv primaries.

The bird appears to have moulted its tail, but it has the grey greater coverts of your bird and juv-like remiges - but they can't be as the inner priamries are greyer and tipped white. In Malling Olsen and Larsson, fig. 90 (page 101) shows a 2nd winter like this, but it has only one pure grey inner primary contrasting with the other black primaries and black secondary bar. Note that the description and illustration on plate 13 of a '2nd-winter' is surely a second-summer, with a red bill.

If we look at your bird, to me if it had no moult and complete/same-aged primaries it would be Audouin's. However, it is moulting, okay at an odd time' and seems to look like something else, but the new inner primary is grey. I still think it is an odd moulting 2nd cycle (2w) Audouin's.

Brian S

[adriaens]

Hi Brian,

I cannot see any juvenile remiges in the Moroccan bird. The outer primaries are black and rounded, as in 2nd generation.

[Brian S]

Hi Brian,

I cannot see any juvenile remiges in the Moroccan bird. The outer primaries are black and rounded, as in 2nd generation.

No neither can I. I guess I was trying to put it in the context of it possibly being a Laughing, in which I said they are 'juv-like' - not actually juv.

What you say it's ID was?

Brian S

[macrourus]

2nd w Audouin's IMO
________
Web shows (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[adriaens]

No neither can I. I guess I was trying to put it in the context of it possibly being a Laughing, in which I said they are 'juv-like' - not actually juv.

What you say it's ID was?

Brian S
I am really not sure. Cannot rule out Audouin's from these photographs, but at least the tail is wrong for full 2nd-winter plumage of that species (too much black on it). For a retarded 1st-summer (moulting into 2w), the outer primaries seem way too fresh.
I find it impossible to rule out Laughing Gull. It is a pity that there are not more photographs. The observer mentions having seen the head pattern; perhaps he saw the bill colour too ?

[James P. Smith]

2nd w Audouin's IMO

Can you field any images of known 2nd w Audouin's with a tail pattern like the subject bird?

James

[James P. Smith]

About a week ago I asked Martyn Kenefick, who lives in Trinidad, what he thought about the images. Here's the relevant part of his reply;

"To be perfectly honest, if I had this view of this gull flying around Port of Spain harbour I would dismiss it as a Laughing Gull (the default gull here in T&T) without a second glance. Everything in the color tone of the upperparts, the wing length and the amount of black in the distal tail in the photo feels right for Laughing Gull. I realize Audouin's is more likely - but to me (from what bits of the bird the photos show) it looks a bog-standard Laughing Gull

Sorry I cannot be more informed"

He also admitted that he has limited experience of Audouin's with most of those being adult.


Best,


James

[JanJ]

It´s difficult to leave unsolved problems, so goes for certain birds, a blessing in some of the cases!
As mentioned by Peter there´s to much black on the tail for a second winter audouinii and the primaries looks to fresh for a retarded 1st summer, starting primary moult into second winter for sure. Also structure seems not to be in favour of audouinii.
Some second winter audouinii from January (3cy):

http://picasaweb.google.com/Hagmarksgatan/MarockoJan2009#

and here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/yeliseev/771279903/in/set-72057594099707549/

A 2cy in May flying:

http://www.pbase.com/botb/image/87064185

On the ground:

http://www.pbase.com/botb/image/87064188

Do we BTW now what bird Andrea was refering to?

Once again, Am I the only one seeing some barred feathers in the greater coverts?

JanJ

[macrourus]

Ooops Sorry I was not clear...I meant 2nd w Audouin's the bird from Morocco posted by brian with the link

the Gambian bird I would favour also Audouin's as feeling, but I do not like to base my ID on feeling when not seen by myself in the field... so, I've no firm opinion and follow Peter on that (and, however, peter knows millions years more on gulls than me )
________
Glass Water Pipes (http://glassgallery.tumblr.com/bubblers/)

[Brian S]

Can you field any images of known 2nd w Audouin's with a tail pattern like the subject bird?

James

James

This is pure speculation, but can some of the apparent 'extensive' black be in fact the legs either side of unmoulted tail feathers?

Probably not, but just a thought.

Brian S

[JanJ]

Brian,

looking at the first image where the foot is quite visible and well separated from the tail and comparing it with the impression you get in image two, I´m not so sure that the legs are a part of the impression of the tail - as little it actually is that we can see of it.
However, in image two you can just see a slight thickining of the lower part of the tail, which then probably is due to foot involment.
Still puzzled by this gull, especially the uniformly patterned grey greater coverts and of course the moult, for a 1cy - or perhaps after all a retarded 2cy? A selection of Laughing below shows some 1cy in Dec. with different moult scores and pattern. Take a look at the various birds and check for covert pattern, tail pattern and the white undertail coverts showing beyond the tail in some. Not conviced about the identity of this gull just showing some possible clues.

http://www.pbase.com/jkrnm5/laughing_gull&page=all

http://www.pbase.com/stevemetz/laughing_gull

http://www.pbase.com/perspicacity/laughing_gulls

http://www.pbase.com/image/30040561

http://www.pbase.com/image/72249235

http://www.pbase.com/image/95181531

JanJ

[James P. Smith]

Greetings everyone,

Thanks very much for your continued interest in the Gambian Gull;
http://pioneerbirding.blogspot.com/2010/01/gambia-gull-november-17th-2007.html

The divide of opinion is really interesting, split roughly 60/40 in favor of Laughing Gull. In reference to Peter's question, I asked Simon Edwards (the photographer) about the bill and he said 'it appeared dark with a pronounced drooping aspect" but admits he only got a brief look.

Jan, you found this image which is one of the closets matches (though the date isn't too close) we've seen for the Gambian bird;
http://www.pbase.com/image/95181531
You've hinted several times that you think you can see some barring on the greater coverts. Where are going with this? I must admit, the greater coverts look relatively plain grey to me.

Again I attach a crop from the first image. Surely this shows the traces of a hood and is not photographic artifact?

Brian, I looked into your comments on the leg/tail issue but I'm pretty sure that the legs and feet do not affect the true pattern of the tail.

Cheers,

James

[JanJ]

Yes James, the hint on the barring on some of the greater coverts, also visible on the innermost greater covert in the image above in your last post. I´m only curious about if anyone else have the same effect on their scren. So, if there now where to be some barring there for a fact, it would be strange, since Laughing and Audouin´s seem to lack this feature. The dates for several of the images I linked differ of course from the subject date, the one you mentioned above from Feb, shows the wear and pattern of one 1st cycle on that date, which of course is variable, compared with the pattern shown for the subject bird, since it shows some features for a 1st cycle bird, that is to say - if now a Laughing Gull. Some 1st cycle Laughing apparently replace some or more rectrices late in the season with white feathers.

JanJ

[James P. Smith]

Yes James, the hint on the barring on some of the greater coverts, also visible on the innermost greater covert in the image above in your last post. I´m only curious about if anyone else have the same effect on their scren. So, if there now where to be some barring there for a fact, it would be strange, since Laughing and Audouin´s seem to lack this feature.
JanJ

Jan,

Sorry - As much as I try, and I've checked on two different monitors, I cannot see the barring that you describe on the inner greater coverts. They look plain grey and uniform to me, but the problem could be with my screens!

It will be interesting to see if Brian comes back from the Gambia with a nice set of first and second cycle Audoiun's Gull images, though of course, the time of year is slightly different to the subject bird.

Best Wishes,

James

[Jrhough1]

The photos are just possibly misleading enough to thwart a solid id. in this case, but having looked at the photos, I'm more in favor of a first-winter Laughing Gull based on what I can see. Here's my rushed two cents/pennies/euros worth of opinion..

The dark tail, extensively brown forewing, especially the brown-washed median coverts and fairly uniform saddle point to this bird being a first-year bird - second-winter Laughing Gull in November wouldn't show a combination of that tail and upperwing pattern and Audouin's usually show a rather clean demarcation between pale mantle and wings and dark primaries and clean, dark trailing edge to the secondaries.

The clean white rump, especially the upper area (on photos, duskier on Audouin's?) and the lack of dark-centred rear scapular feathers (shown by Audouin's?) and a lack of dark-centred greater coverts are more pro-Laughing. I haven't seen Audouin's since 2006 and from my notes, I remeber First-year Audouin's tend to be darker on the greater coverts, and this bird appears to have moulted these into new, greyer feathers which fit Laughing Gull more than Audouin's.

The things I can't explain are the inner primaries - moult? a bit early for a first-winter Laughing Gull. The head pattern, or lack of visible head pattern, is kind of a guessing game and I can't determine if it's any use at all.

So, using what we can see in the images, which might be misleading, since Audouin's is more likely on probability, the overall general shape, brown-toned median coverts, greyish greater coverts, clean white rump all favor Laughing Gull to me rather than Audouin's. Given the vagrancy of Laughing Gull, I don't think it's beyond possibility for one to show up in the Gambia.

[Jrhough1]

At the behest of someone, here's a couple of Au-doo-ins Gulls from Southern Spain, albeit in May, some six months older than the Nov Gambian bird.
Hopefully they'll be a reference to age classes - one is a worn first-summer and the second is a standard second-summer, the latter not looking too much different from second-winter plumage.

Note the first-summer still has completely dark greater coverts in May, while the Gambia bird, six months younger, is moulting them out and replacing them with grey. This seems hard to explain the Gambia bird being a first-winter Audouin's, no?

Comments?

best,

JRH

[John Bell]

Note the first-summer still has completely dark greater coverts in May, while the Gambia bird, six months younger, is moulting them out and replacing them with grey. This seems hard to explain the Gambia bird being a first-winter Audouin's, no?

Comments?

best,

JRH

hi James et al,

Yes the bird is a 2nd-winter Audouin's. That is why it does not look like a 1st-W Audouin's.

cheers,
John

[Jrhough1]

Hey, John, how's things...? I came into this thread late and formed an initial opinion without reading much of the preceeding threads. I am not entirely convinced I know what this is...Audouin's, as you point out, is the more likely species, but for me, it's not an easy pill to swallow from what I can see. I may of course just be reading the photo wrong and gaining a different impression.

Can you expand on your last post?

The key here, from going-back and re-reading the posts is that there's no real unanimous consensus on the age of the bird..is it a first-winter, is it a first-summer moulting into 2nd-winter or is it a second-winter?

I think until a solid age determination is agreed on by everyone, it's going to be tough to move forward from the images.

Great to see your input,

best,

JRH

[John Bell]

Hey, John, how's things...? I came into this thread late and formed an initial opinion without reading much of the preceeding threads. I am not entirely convinced I know what this is...Audouin's, as you point out, is the more likely species, but for me, it's not an easy pill to swallow from what I can see. I may of course just be reading the photo wrong and gaining a different impression.

Can you expand on your last post?

The key here, from going-back and re-reading the posts is that there's no real unanimous consensus on the age of the bird..is it a first-winter, is it a first-summer moulting into 2nd-winter or is it a second-winter?

I think until a solid age determination is agreed on by everyone, it's going to be tough to move forward from the images.

Great to see your input,

best,

JRH

Hi Julian et al,

I think the main problem with this Audouin's initially is the tone of grey which had me confused at first. However this is probably an illusion. See

http://www.birdguides.com/iris/pictures.asp?mode=search&sp=061011&rty=0&r=1&off=205035&v=0

Hopefully the top picture will have primaries a shade of grey not far off Yellow-legged Gull.

Hopefully the link will work. If not the picture details are labelled:

Audouin's Gull (Larus audouinii)
Ebro Delta, Spain
Sean Johnston simple email profile profile
02/05/09 (uploaded 13/05/09)

Equipment: Nikon.


As regards the age. I'm guessing this bird is transitional between first summer and second winter. Although I guess it could be a 'well moulted' first winter. See http://senegal.seawatching.net/gallery/gal4/gal4.html for some variation.

I have to admit I'm currently in urgent need of sleep but will try to give a better answer when I'm next online,

cheers,
John

[JanJ]

As much as this gull is an intersting challange, I doubt we are able to reach a positive identification, as if this was news to you people :wink:

I have decided to put myself in the advanced first cycle Laughing Gull camp and be done with it :cool: The moult score is out of date for any age for both species. Of course gulls vary and so do time of moult, not to mention in out of range birds. Looking at the wing again - there are six outer primaries which probably are first generation due to semingly pointed tips, at least on the two outermost. The innermost feather, seems to be a fully grown white-tipped greyish second generation p1, with another one growing next to it. That would suggest an older bird than mentioned. Next to the two greyish primaries there are some brownish primaries growing.
There´s to much atypical features on this gull to verify any of the species imo. and judging the greytone is probably not advisable. However, structurally Laughing is a better candidate.

JanJ

[Brian S]

Hi James

No Audouin's Gulls in the Gambia, I'm afraid, though even if I had it would not have helped matters, as it was the 'wrong' time of year anyway.

It seems we have reached an impasse with your gull, though unlike some others I think exposure/light has played a part in making the gull in the photos look darker - Gambian light is harsh, often confusing the camera into making greys look darker.

I am still in the Audouin's camp. I reckon the only way to find out is to have a fight........:laugh:

Brian S

[John Bell]

Hi all.

Much as I would enjoy watching a fight I have to say I think this discussion has run its course. I think Julian may well be right in retrospect about it being a 1st-W Audouin's.

cheers,
John

[JanJ]

Hi all.

Much as I would enjoy watching a fight I have to say I think this discussion has run its course. I think Julian may well be right in retrospect about it being a 1st-W Audouin's.

cheers,
John

Couldn´t agree more. Only a new image with a full view of all needed features would do the trick.

JanJ

[James P. Smith]

Hi James

No Audouin's Gulls in the Gambia, I'm afraid, though even if I had it would not have helped matters, as it was the 'wrong' time of year anyway.

It seems we have reached an impasse with your gull, though unlike some others I think exposure/light has played a part in making the gull in the photos look darker - Gambian light is harsh, often confusing the camera into making greys look darker.

I am still in the Audouin's camp. I reckon the only way to find out is to have a fight........:laugh:

Brian S


Thanks Brian....yourself and others favouring Audouin's may well be right. Neither Simon or myself have strong feelings either way but we did think there was at least a chance that it might be identified with a level of certainty. How interesting then, that despite all the views and comments we have to let it go unidentified.

As it happens I was just in Florida and took a few digi-bin shots of first-cycle Laughing Gulls in flight. Naturally, the grey tones vary between sunny and overcast days and of course, the time of year wouldn't match the Gambian bird, but......;
http://pioneerbirding.blogspot.com/2010/02/fl-laughing-gulls-in-flight.html

Do you still think the Gambian bird is too pale for Laughing having viewed these?

Agreeing with Peter Adriaens, I also find it impossible to rule out Laughing Gull.

Thanks very much to all for looking into this problem!

Best,

James