Pipit from Spain

[DLVelasco]

Hi,
An interesting pipit, identified by the finders as Tawny, and later as Blyth´s, was seen in Galicia, NW Spain, this weekend.
I went to see the bird myself today, and studied it for several hours in company of other experienced birders. In the field, the bird looked quite small (I´ve seen several hundred Richard´s Pipits, and this pipit is noticeably smaller, appearing just a little bit bigger than nearby Meadows, and shorter tailed than most of the Richard´s I´ve seen). Crown is darker and more streaked than usual, as well as the back. Behaviour is also interesting, as the bird walks more "horizontally" than what´s usual in most Richard´s.
However, the bird called at least 7 times, giving an absolutely Richard´s type call. I´ve heard Richard´s Pipit calling many, many times, as well as Blyth´s a couple of times, and I couldn´t detect any difference in this call from the typical richardii sound. One of the moulted median covs of the left wing (the third one from the left, easily seen in one of the photos I attach, named "pipit") has also typical Richard´s pattern, with the dark centre being triangular shaped, absolutely wrong for Blyth´s. Tail pattern is also good for Richard´s, as well as the apparently long hind claw. Belly is whitish, contrasting with the brownish upper breast. For all those reasons mentioned, I would identify the bird as a 1ºw Richard´s, perhaps of the dauricus/sinensis race, but would be interested in hearing others´opinions on the bird.
I attach a couple of shots, taken by Marco Garcia, and you can see some great pics here:
http://travellingbirds.blogspot.com/

http://avesdelgolfoartabro.blogspot.com/2010/01/el-frio-se-noto-en-la-ria.html

Daniel L. Velasco

[Colin Key]

The images are not very clear, but this looks like a Meadow Pipit to me. I certainly can't see either Tawny or Richards on the basis of these shots.

Colin

[Howard King]

Helm Guide Pipits and Wagtails - states under identification for Blyth's - quote - is extremely similar to Richards and is best told apart by voice.... maybe the only way to prove your ID one way or the other is by recording the call and in my opinion it was never a Tawny

[darrenjhughes]

clearly Richards type by pale lores in first image the second is a little more confusing see attatched photo this bird was at first ID'ed as Tawny last year on brief views and call when photo's were studied later it was sorted out

[Ben Miller]

Hi Daniel,

Great photos, thanks for sharing.

Right, this is clearly either a Richard's or a Blyth's, as has been already established.

Looking through Marco's photos on the link provided, each time I look at them they shout "Blyth's!", "Blyth's!" at me - the jizz is just all wrong for a richardii, seeming small billed and short tailed, also with a relatively short super.

In addition, the pattern of the single adult-type inner Median covert on this picture looks more like Blyth's than Richard's to me, so I'm going to stick my neck out and say Blyth's! - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_09sbCN_Lww0/S0t8Ue8kJxI/AAAAAAAACkI/fZe71Z1t_8s/s1600-h/AntGod1.JPG

However, I've only very, very limited field experience of Blyth's so look forward to learning from those with more - I just can't reconcile the feel for this bird with my experience of Richards.

Cheers & Good Birding,

Ben

[wheatearlp]

Can't see where Meadow Pipit comes from in these photos I'm afraid; bill too stout, no flank or breast streaking, supercilium too pronounced for a start. The lores do not appear to be dark, therefore not Tawny. This brings us back to either a small Richard's or a Blyth's as per the original post. Pointed dark centre of median covert would seem to point to Richard's, as does the call heard. However more horizontal carriage when walking would perhaps suggest Blyth's. On balance I'd probably plump for a small Richard's.

[AndyB]

Hi Daniel, is your video the same bird?
http://surfbirds.com/video2/view_video.php?viewkey=6bfeccb5b41016357176

[benoit.nabholz]

Hi all,

I agree with Ben Miller concerning the structure and proportion of the bird. If it's a Richard, it's a small and delicate one. The pattern of the single adult median covert pointed by Ben also looks more like Blyth's than Richard's to me. But variation seem to exist (From pipit & wagtails).

However, the bill is not so small and pointed (in the range of Richard as far as I know) and the outermost tail feathers on this picture appear too white for a Blyth:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_09sbCN_Lww0/S0zAmlRaIsI/AAAAAAAACk4/gHZYFYHedQo/s1600-h/Vuelo.JPG

This is a tricky bird ! Maybe the call is needed. My guess would be that it's a Richard's pipit.

Benoit

[DLVelasco]

Hi there,
Colin, you must have surely seen other pics, as the ones in the links are high quality close ups, evidently showing not a meadow, but a Richard´s type.
The pale lores rule out Tawny, of course, and the problem here is between a small Richard´s and a Blyth´s. I have a lot of experience with Richard´s, and the bird is clearly not a typical one (but still, to my eyes and ears, a Richard´s), so I was seeking opinions from birders with a lot of experience with Blyth´s, which is not my case (Magnus..,) to confirm it´s a Richard´s.
I attach again a picture of the bird, with one of the MCs selected and highlighted. The shape of the dark centre of that MC is clearly typical for richardii, being triangular shaped and occupying more than one half of the feather. Based on my limited experience with blyth´s, and on all the books and papers published on the subject (specially "pipits and wagtails", which has several drawings of all known MC patterns, as well as some BB articles, etc etc) the shape is all wrong for Blyth´s, and should rule out the species.
Apart from that, and as already commented, the bird, in certain postures and pics, and specially when seen distantly, has a blyth´s "feel", as Ben says, and, because of its size, structure and behaviour, that´s why I think its such an interesting and educative bird for everyone
A video can be seen here:
http://avesdelariadoburgo.blogspot.com/

I have some good ones which I will upload later (the bird I have in one surfbirdsvideo titled "Richard´s pipit" is NOT this bird)
However, considering the MC pattern, the contrasting whitish colour of the belly, outer tail feathers pattern, long hind claw, facial pattern and the call, which we heard several times, and I can swear, based on several hundred Richard´s heard over the last few years (We have 15-20 birds each autumn-winter in my region, and I get to hear each one many times during the months they spend here) that the call was that of a normal Richard´s, clearly not the disctintive chip-chup, soft, blyth´s call, nor the other, "richard´s like" blyth´s call, which sounds a little bit different, less harsh, than Richard´s, I conclude this bird has to be a small Richard´s.
Any more comments??
thanks!

[Brian S]

Daniel

I saw these photos on Reservoir Birds late last night - where there is also a Richard's Pipit (http://birdscatalonia.brinkster.net/ReservoirBirds/Images/Anthus_richardi_020.jpg). I was struck then most by the head pattern, bill and median coverts (note the asymmetric moult, with no new med coverts on the right wing).

The supercilium seems quite strong and well-marked, suggesting Richard's more to me - though there is some slight variability; the bill seems stronger - stronger than I would expect from Blyth's; as you say, the new inner coverts look to have more pointed centres than they should for Blyth's - though again this is sometimes hard to judge properly.

Here are some images of the two, which illustrate the head pattern, bill size and new med covert pattern.

]Blyth's - Sweden - http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_uploaded/19992_20080210_0027.jpg
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_user_uploads/20640_UU_6839_Mongol6MN-080117.jpg
Ouessant - http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_uploaded/8181_PipitdeGodlweski2BH114102005-ouessant.jpg
Heligoland - note shape ove centre on new med covert http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds_uploaded/30169_SteppenpiepersmDSC_1025.jpg

Richard's - HK
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=9914&extra=page%3D1
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthread.php?tid=9026&extra=page%3D1

I think a really important factor would be the call, which you describe as like a Richard's.

Brian S

PS Colin, I'm sorry you're way off with Meadow Pipit.

[CAU]

I agree on Richard's Pipit because of the reasons given by Daniel and Brian (pattern of the MCs, strong supercilium, strong bill, white belly). You can also see the very Richard's Pipit -like pattern of the second outermost tail feathers here (which is one of the best features):
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_09sbCN_Lww0/S0zAmlRaIsI/AAAAAAAACk4/gHZYFYHedQo/s1600-h/Vuelo.JPG


In addition, the pattern of the single adult-type inner Median covert on this picture looks more like Blyth's than Richard's to me, so I'm going to stick my neck out and say Blyth's! - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_09sbCN_Lww0/S0t8Ue8kJxI/AAAAAAAACkI/fZe71Z1t_8s/s1600-h/AntGod1.JPG

I would interpret the median coverts on the left wing like this:
-the innermost visible one is probably an adult feather, but almost completely hidden behind the scapulars
-the second innermost visible one is a very worn juvenile feather
-the third innermost visible one is an adult feather
-the following is probably missing or a very worn juvenile one
-the following two are again adult (of which Daniel has encircled the inner one)
-the outermost visible one is probably juvenile, but a bit less worn than the others

Although the pattern of the adult feathers is often easier to judge, note that in this case the centres of the juvenile feathers are very triangular (actually the entire feathers are very triangular, as the pale edges are almost completely worn off), and compare with the broader centres on the juvenile MCs on the Blyth's Pipits linked by Brian.

[garry1366]

Hi All,
Link below to an interesting bird seen on North Ronaldsay in 2008. Just shows how tricky these birds can still be.

G

http://northronbirdobs.blogspot.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

[Ben Miller]

Can I just start by saying thanks to everyone who has posted - I've certainly learnt a lot.

Yes CAU, it was the third innermost median covert I was looking at, which I also took to be an adult feather, and which I thought was Blyth's like, but I stand corrected - thanks to Brian for his links, the last one is very educational from this perspective.

My initial thoughts were "if Daniel heard it call like a Richard's, then it's a Richards", but got swayed by the jizz & this one feather. Apologies for contradicting you Daniel.

Cheers, Ben

[DLVelasco]

Hi!
I want to thank everyone for their very interesting comments on the pipit.
We all have learnt a lot from it!

Dani

[DLVelasco]

Hi,

I´ve just uploaded a couple videos of the pipit in surfbirds video, where it feels very Blyth´s like.

The bird is still causing much debate! Several very experienced birders think it´s Richard´s, but others, also with a lot of experience with both species, think It´s Blyth´s.

We will try to record the call or trap the bird, but unfortunately it wasn´t seen yesterday.

Dani

[adriaens]

Hi Dani,

with this pattern of new median coverts, such a prominent dark 'brow' above the supercilium, very long white wedge on T5 (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_09sbCN_Lww0/S0zAmlRaIsI/AAAAAAAACk4/gHZYFYHedQo/s1600-h/Vuelo.JPG), long and flat hind claw (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_09sbCN_Lww0/S0zGYMeN1gI/AAAAAAAAClA/RrlXwxVnrJM/s1600-h/U%C3%B1a.JPG), rufous flanks against whitish belly, and only moderately streaked mantle, there should probably not be much debate. It really looks more like a Richard's than Blyth's Pipit.

[RoyHargreaves]

Having seen the much-debated Portland Pipit, which ultimately was thought to be a dauricus/sinensis Richard’s Pipit in March and April 1989 I can certainly agree that some Richard’s are structurally close to Blyth’s – certainly looking smaller than the normal richardi that we get in Western Europe. While I would agree that the bird is a Richard’s I would also urge caution on the use of some of the criteria suggested on this thread. For instance T5 is quite variable in extent and this bird’s is not really beyond the variation exceptionally shown by Blyth’s. Also it is worth noting that not all hind-claws on Blyth’s are shorter and more curved than Richard’s. Indeed the maximum for Blyth’s (15.4mm) exceeds that for sinensis Richard’s (15.3) and on these long-clawed Blyth’s the hind-claw is also quite flat. The pattern of the head and mantle I think are too unreliable to use other than as supporting features as their assessment is very subjective. After all I seem to remember that the warm ear-coverts has been put forward as a pro-Blyth’s feature and this bird seems to show that in at least one picture.

I agree with CAU’s assessment of the median coverts – both in their age and the conclusion that this supports Richard’s not Blyth’s. Although the median coverts on both ends of the tract can be more pointed than the central ones this bird’s are too pointed for Blyth’s – particularly on the centre of the tract. Structurally it also has features that support Richard’s – the heavy bill and the tail is at least 10% longer than the exposed tertials whereas on Blyth’s it is roughly equal. The short-tailed appearance of Blyth’s is a matter of proportion though because while a short-tailed Richard’s has a shorter tail than a long-tailed Blyth’s it will still retain the shape of a Richard’s because the body retains the same proportions as a larger Richard’s. The Blyth’s call that is most like Richard’s to my ear is similar to one of the calls that flavissima Yellow Wagtail routinely makes - a ‘pscheeu’ that drops at the end.

As for posture that will depend on habitat and some Richard’s do run around horizontally – I would guess primarily in damp and well-vegetated areas to avoid getting the tail wet or damaged.

[macrourus]

Reagrding the supercilium and crown pattern, in this bird the good photos clearly help a lote and are easely readeble... however, I want to underline as sometimes photographic effect are terrible and that: 1) there is a certain amount of variability, as usual, and few Richard's may lack the dark smudge over the supercilium (I use to see here in Sicily over 100 Richard's each year, not to say also abroad to add) 2) on the contrary, few Blyth's may show this smude, this dark framing (I do not know exact english word...same effect as on Booted Warbler to understand) .... Having said this, also the rear supercilium may vary a bit, with very few Blyth's showing a bit wider rear end of the supercilium, while few Richard's showing a bit narrower rear end... the whole pattern (supercivlium shape and dark smudge, as well as cvrown pattern) its however strongly influenced by photos effect and above all by head position, angle of the head indeed. Just check few photos of Blyth's in last year BBRC reports in British Birds... In fact, a Blyth's with a turned head photographed at 3/4 facing us, may show a broader supericlium rear end than actually is, as well facing opposite of our point of view, this may appear narrower, making some Riachard's looking alike Blyth's in this character...

Also, the pale lores, as in any bird with pale lores, at some agnle may looks dark as in Tawny.... I can post some shots from Sinai top show that...and some from Sicily too. As opposite, some birds with dark lore, may appear pale lore when head at 3/4 angle (usually, a darkish feather has a pale base barbule, while often, pale feathers could have darkish base or show up dark skin base, changing appearance)....

However, your bird Daniel its a small Riachard's as sometimes we get here in Sicily wintering...often I wondered if they are just smaller birds or different populations/taxa.

The call clinche the ID...indeed, 1st Italian record officially submitted and pending, regard a Blyth's with darker smudge over supercilium and with supercilium looking wider than it was in the field in the photos with angled head (fortunatley showing better in the other picture available).... however, even if the photos are simply not good enough to be sure about it ID, the CALL was absolutely typical for Blyth's (by the call I found the 2nd for Israel, and other birds in Europe and Asia too)....

Interesting stuff

Ciao

AC
________
Park Royal 2 Condominium Pattaya (http://pattayaluxurycondos.com)

[RoyHargreaves]

Macrourus the smudge you are talking about is the called lateral crown-stripe. Obviously how visible it is will depend on the colour of the remainder of the crown, which will determine the amount of contrast and so how obvious that line may or may not be.

I agree it is interesting to speculate if these birds are sinensis or merely small nominate, which you would expect to be more likely. After all it is not unreasonable to expect a population of the same taxon to vary in size to some degree.

As our "perception" of a species improves with improved knowledge and improved optics we start seeing differences that are part of a population's normal variation and wondering if they are more significant than they really are.