Not Marsh Warbler, but what?

[Brian S]

I've had a bit of discussion (well four words, actually) about the ID of this bird in Kazakhstan.

http://www.birds.kz/Acrocephalus%20palustris/indexe.html - click on the series at the bottom for more images.

Any takers?

Brian S

[Howard King]

Reminds me of Blyth's Reed Warbler but would like to get my hands on the original uncropped photos - with those at low res on the web page its impossible to home in in certain areas and positively define the shape and form of the various feathers of the wing as exposed the lenght of p1 for instance, plus the actual colour of the bill and facial pattern. One thing for sure is that the eye ring is well defined above the eye and the bill looks in most images long rather than thick or stout. However having said all that the white showing on the back is odd more reminisent of a Hippolais.

[ML-S]

Looks like a Booted Warbler.

[CAU]

I agree with ML-S. It has a dark smudge above the supercilium, which extends clearly behind the eye, a short primary projection, a square-tipped tail with short central feathers and 'booted legs'. The distinct head pattern and the short-looking bill with an apparently dark tip to the lower mandible fit better Booted than Sykes's Warbler.

[stenura]

I agree as well. In addition to the good characters mentiond by CAU, also tertial pattern seem to favour caligata (as well as the smudgy tarsus, but perhaps of less importance).

[Brian S]

So no chance of Paddyfield?

http://www.kazakhstanbirdtours.com/gallery/paddyfield-warbler-kaz-2007.jpg - can't see any t1-t6 difference here, but the untcs seem fairly long - this was discussed some time ago in BB following images by Colin Bradshaw

http://www.nature-shetland.co.uk/naturelatest/pics08/paddyfield.jpg

Below is an enlarged image form the series: is t6 shorter than t1?

Brian S

[stenura]

Personally I'd expect a Paddyfield to show more rufous tones above, and I also belive the images would have shown a more graduated tail shape and perhaps more contrasting tertials.

[Brian S]

I'm really putting the case of Paddyfield, because that's what I thought it was; someone else thought it was Booted.....

Specimens of Paddyfield show that the upperparts vary from those that are (perhaps typically) more rufous hued to more greyish brown, and this is apparent even in summer.

On the enlarged image, is the outer rectrix not short?

Brian S

[ML-S]

I don't think you can see the outermost rectrix properly on this enlarged photo, other pictures show
that it's fairly long. And, as Magnus noted, I also think it's not rufous enough, and there's no pale area on the neck behind ear-coverts, quite typical of Paddyfield. Your example photo of a Paddyfield from Kazakhstan looks also suspicious, the tail is square-ended with much white on the outer feathers, etc.

[CAU]

Regarding the tail shape, on Hippolais warblers the central pair of tail feathers is shorter than the adjacent ones, whereas on Acrocephalus warblers the central pair is the longest or almost longest one, and the outer feathers become gradually shorter. In this photo (http://www.birds.kz/Acrocephalus%20palustris/largee.html?0&10) it at least looks like the topmost feather (presumably one of the central ones) is clearly shorter than those below it. Of course the photos are not so good that one could easily assess the exact shape of the tail.

The colouration of the bill would also favour Booted Warbler, as on especially adult Paddyfield Warblers almost half of the lower mandible is usually black.

Additionally, I feel that this photo (http://www.kazakhstanbirdtours.com/gallery/paddyfield-warbler-kaz-2007.jpg) definitely shows a Booted Warbler. On a Paddyfield Warbler the supercilium would be longer and broader, and of course also the tail shape and the length of the UTCs fit better Booted. Like mentioned by ML-S, it also lacks the pale area behind the ear coverts.

[Howard King]

A contentious set of photographs to use on a species fact sheet - which ever way you look at it

[Brian S]

Okay, okay, I'll stop pushing for Paddyfield :smile:

This image of 'Paddyfield' from Kazakhstan http://www.kazakhstanbirdtours.com/gallery/paddyfield-warbler-kaz-2007.jpg , I knew would be contentious.

Brian S

Edit - below an enlarged version of the image CAU mentions.

[Yoav]

Brian, don't give up so fast!
I'm joining the acro-fans. To my eyes this looks like a perfect acro and not Hippolais - looking at the wing-tail proportions and head shape.
This bird is very worn - it had moulted 6-7 monthes before the image was taken, and therefore it's not so warm-toned. These tones are OK for an adult acro at that time of the year. It is missing some tertials so talking about tertial pattern is pointless.
I agree with Brian that the head pattern does recall paddy, the primary projection is short, and in some images the lower mandible does actually look mostly dark. But I'd like to hold the bird in my hand and take some measurements before positively ID'ing it.

Yoav.

[phil baber]

Brian,

Am in the Paddyfield camp here with you.

Apart from all the obvious features? Habitat, song-perch is a clincher for myself.

The head pattern IMO is too distinctive to favour Syke's over PFW.

Do Syke's prefer Phrags as song-posts?

I believe Paddys might prefer them?

Only IMHO after all !

[macrourus]

also wing-tip to tail-tip ratio favoru Booted as Paddyfield has a very short wing compared to a very long tail, giving almost a Dartford Wabler field effect....
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[MichaelF]

Doesn't look like Dartford Warbler to me! :eek:

Nor even Dartford Wabler either :ohdear:

[macrourus]

Ah ah ah very funny...sorry for mis writing...always in a hurry and fast writing as I rather prefer to be always out birding in the field then in front of a computer :certifiable::beer:

I mean the "impression"..the field impression is often as a Sylvia waRbler (I reported Dartford (or better Sylvia undata so everybody understand....at leats who knows scientific name :cry:) just to over stress the long tail looking) in Paddyfield ...with the short wing and whort primary projection...compared to rather long-tail....

however, field impression is highly subjective ...but wing-tip to tail-tip ratio is NOT subjective, and in our bird fitt better a BOOTED Wabler :err::laugh:
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[macrourus]

...and however, this is just a minor add and a least usefull character from photos at least (much better in the field when field impression (jizz) is far more helpful) and the others characters already discussed by CAU et al. are more important
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