Ringing, good or bad?

[john robinson]

Alex
Sorry I don't wish to prolong this , as it will never come to a solution or agreement anyway. All I will say is that what you argue above does not always happen in real life. I think you realise that.I have a great number of pictures showing very good examples of the many facets of what I believe to be bad practice.according to BTO rules..
(I do in fact provide pictures for the BTO )
JR

[Howard King]

For 98% of the birds that pass here we simple do not have a clue of their origins the return on one ring from here (and yes we have a ringing program http://www.hawar-islands.com/blog/gen_stub.php) certainly will be of real value. Those that oppose ringing pray tell me how we might get at the information, so many of you already take for granted, by any other means.

[GrahamMc]

I totally agree with Derek, ringing is so interesting,so much info is gained through ringing, the fascination gripped me years ago and i went out with an esteemed ringer on a couple of occasions, sadly i had to work away(to feather the nest :-) ) i would love to start again but fear at 53 im getting to old.

[Colin Key]

Originally Posted by GrahamMc

I totally agree with Derek ,so much info is gained through ringing, the fascination gripped me years ago and i went out with an esteemed ringer on a couple of occasions, sadly i had to work away(to feather the nest :-) ) i would love to start again but fear at 53 im getting to old.

Graham,

You re-open this thread at your peril!!

1. "so much info is gained through ringing" - what is your evidence for this statement?

2. " the fascination gripped me years ago and i went out with an esteemed ringer on a couple of occasions" - this is my major objection to ringing, amateurs ringing purely for the pleasure of doing so (the addictive practice of "bird fondling") rather than with any scientific goal in mind.

Colin

[MichaelF]

How about this for some amazing info gained from ringing:
http://www.rug.nl/Corporate/nieuws/a...richten/157_09

Or that two Red-flanked Bluetails were ringed at Spurn Bird Obs on 17 and 18 October this year - as far as I can tell from birdguides, no-one ever saw two at the same time. Would anyone have known there were two but for the ringing?

[Colin Key]

Yes, we have had "three" Yellow-browed Warblers here in the past week - unfortunately the second and third had the same ring that was put on the first!!

A "much fondled" bird.

Colin

[mafting]

Here you go, Colin. Knock yourself out: http://www.bto.org/ringing/ringinfo/objectives.htm

If it wasn't for ringing you'd still be thinking that Swallows slept at the bottom of ponds in winter.

ALL ringers are 'amateurs' in the sense that nobody is a professional ringer - no job exists that provides a wage just for ringing birds. So while you may go out and count birds and send the data to the BTO, ringers go out and measure birds (or aspects of them) and then send that data to the BTO. You do your bit for pleasure I'm sure. So do you expect ringers to do it if they hate it? You are unable to interpret and assess the BTO Atlas data you gather on your own I'm sure. So do you expect ringers to be able to interpret and asses themselves all the ringing data that they gather? They are effectively working for free for the BTO, providing baseline scientific data that is then used by scientists at the BTO and elsewhere. That data is much more reliable and valuable than the sort of data that you may supply (counts), if you do, as it is systematic and biometric. So unless you are able to somehow assess the condition, age and sex of every bird you see, and the movements and origins of some of them as individuals, using systematic and repeatable sampling methods based on several years of training, then you may wish to consider yourself the 'amateur' and question the value of your own activities when you disturb birds by entering their habitat just for the pleasure of seeing them.

Like immunisation schemes in people, the ringing scheme is of primary benefit to the population as a whole and not necessarily the individual directly.

[Colin Key]

Originally Posted by mafting

If it wasn't for ringing you'd still be thinking that Swallows slept at the bottom of ponds in winter.

Odd you should choose that example mafting - I am a great admirer of The Rev Gilbert White and "The Natural History of Selbourne" is one of my favourite books (and, in global terms, the second most popular book in the world after The Bible, which is actually my least favourite book). As I am sure you know, Gilbert White's mission in life was to discover where Swallows hibernated during the winter.

So, how many Barn Swallows have been ringed and how closer are we to knowing where they winter? I have seen hundreds this afternoon, many of these will spend the winter here, and I have well-documented records of breeding in December and fledglings in January in Algarve - all done by observation and photography and never physically touched a bird or impinged on its privacy.

I think that everyone here knows my views on ringing; I have stated them often and will continue to do so when appropriate. Ringing for scientific research I can tolerate, ringing for self-gratification by amateur "Robin strokers" I cannot. It just so happens that I have spent a lot of time in the past week or so in the company of some people who came to Algarve with the intention of trapping and ringing, so I am rather "primed" in my views.

You must, of course, take my "repostes" in the spirit in which they are made - argumentative but not venomous.

Colin

[mafting]

Originally Posted by Colin Key

Ringing for scientific research I can tolerate, ringing for self-gratification by amateur "Robin strokers" I cannot.

You have just ended your own argument - ALL ringing is for scientific purposes. The ringer is merely the 'lab technician', not the professor. One can only ring under the auspices of a scientific ringing scheme - otherwise they do not get a permit.

It seems to be the issue that some people enjoy doing what they donate their free time and money for that you disapprove of. Regardless of their personal motives, they can only operate within the limits of what their permit allows, and that is designated for scientific pruposes. What's wrong with getting personal gratification out of something that has such obvious benefits (you are being deliberately obtuse if you insist on questioning this).

You might think it's a bit of a knockabout light-hearted discussion, but your views are damaging. It is taking a lot of effort to counter them in wider society, mainly due to people being ignorant of the basic facts. You might not agree with it, but if your views become commonplace and impossible to ignore, then important valuable research will be prevented due to 'public acceptance', or become more costly due to intense regulation and administration - it already requires a separate Home Office licence to pluck a feather from a bird for DNA/isotope testing. If ringing is made less accessible to 'amateurs' then huge amounts of information wont be gathered. The Migration Atlas would be impossible.

Didn't Gilbert White tie red string to the legs of swallows to mark them? Ringing remains one of the most powerful tools that we have in studying wild birds.